Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Bill Zebub]

has at last
opened her gates

And if THAT isn't a sexualized reference, I don't know what is.

 

[TerraDave]

Well, you can always find people that are OK with things like this. Candace Owens and Clarence Thomas exist after all. But rather than look at an individual's opinion, look at the general impacted population's feedback.

This is one of the most offensive and misleading posts I have ever seen on ENWorld.

From Ninja Assassin to Clarence Thomas. You did that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don't know if asking if Oriental Adventures was really that racist is a particularly important question. That racist compared to what? There are certainly valid criticisms of its contents and its probably best to just address those rather than trying to figure out how racist it was/is. I think OA is a pretty good book, but many of the criticisms levied against it are certainly valid and were I to make a similar game product today I would heed those criticisms.

Yeah, I thought it was a loaded thread title, myself.

 

[MGibster]

Half the Asian-Americans who would be offended are actually only PARTIAL Asian in the first place, and MOST of them have never EVEN BEEN to Asia.

A few years back, I remember seeing an Asian woman on television criticize an actor from the movie Crazy Rich Asians for only being half Asian. She said, "I thought the movie was Crazy Rich Asians not Crazy Rich Half Asians." I kind of felt bad for the actor who I'm sure is sometimes thought of as "too Asian" for some roles but it turns out others find him not Asian enough for other roles. I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to judge someone as being less or more entitled to offense based on how Asian I think they are or whether or not they've even been to Asia.

 

[Argyle King]

So, @GreyLord - if I'm parsing what you said correctly, your Japanese (Japanese American? I'm not sure) friends have no problems with Oriental Adventures and that makes it not racist?

Well, that's a take I suppose. But, considering that the entire problem with OA is that it pretty much wipes away all cultures from Asia, except Japanese culture and makes Japanese culture the primary culture of the setting, I'm not really sure that "doesn't offend Japanese people" is really the bar that we need to clear.

The question was asked, why is OA a problem. The question was answered. Whether or not is a problem for a specific person isn't really the question.

Frankly, "I have some Japanese friends who aren't offended" isn't really much of an argument.

This is part of why I asked some of my earlier questions.

...not sure why this double quoted, but...

So, @GreyLord - if I'm parsing what you said correctly, your Japanese (Japanese American? I'm not sure) friends have no problems with Oriental Adventures and that makes it not racist?

Well, that's a take I suppose. But, considering that the entire problem with OA is that it pretty much wipes away all cultures from Asia, except Japanese culture and makes Japanese culture the primary culture of the setting, I'm not really sure that "doesn't offend Japanese people" is really the bar that we need to clear.

The question was asked, why is OA a problem. The question was answered. Whether or not is a problem for a specific person isn't really the question.

Frankly, "I have some Japanese friends who aren't offended" isn't really much of an argument.

I agree with some of this. Though, I think there's a point at which I end up circling back to the questions I had.

What's the comparative social/moral weight of a "friend" who isn't offended versus a friend who is?

If I'm not from an Asian culture, is it deemed racist or not racist to assume someone on YouTube channel represents some monolithic truth concerning what an entire culture feels?

I'm living in a time when an alignment entry in a MM for orcs is deemed racist because it assumes something about an entire group, but (at the same time) commentary from a YouTube channel is meant to represent an entire group. From the perspective of a writer working on a project or a business creating a product, it's difficult to discern what the correct way to approach something is deemed to be.

My gut feeling is that offense should be avoided as a default position. At the same time, it feels somewhat racist and condescending to assume offense on behalf of a group.

I can empathize with feeling some offense at having a cultural or ethnic background lumped into some conglomeration of cultures. So, in terms of OA, I get that.

But the question of how to get it right so as to make most people happy while doing the least harm remains.

Are there times when creating a product which sells outweighs some of those concerns?

I've seen it said that "Oriental Adventures" is offensive as a name. How does that weigh against considering whether or not an American audience would even know what "Nippon Adventures" (or some other name) is?

Honestly, I probably wouldn't know had I not been exposed to the word via the game Punch Out. A Japanese boxer ("Piston Honda") from that game used the word. When I was young, I didn't know what it meant, so I looked it up.

Not all of this is necessarily toward @Hussar
As I was responding, other comments popped up and prompted other thoughts.

I do appreciate actual commentary on the product and why it was seen as problematic for some Asian cultures. It has a lot of similarities to how Native Americans are often viewed as one culture, despite there being rather significant differences between many of the tribes.

Learning to see things from other points of view is something I find beneficial, both at the gaming table and beyond.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Did you just compare Rain to Clarence Thomas? Wow.

No. They suggested both share a common trait. That's not a comparison.

"Both pie and ice cream contain sugar" is not comparing the two.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Perhaps not, but as they are the key element, and most of those saying they are offended are White guys or of white descent...I'd say it is somewhat pertinent.

What is INTERESTING is the divide, even in the US regarding this.

There is an OA written for 5e currently, it was WRITTEN by a JAPANESE individual.

The question is, who is racist then. There are Americans who probably would be offended by it, but are they then going to claim a Japanese person is racist against the Japanese? Half the Asian-Americans who would be offended are actually only PARTIAL Asian in the first place, and MOST of them have never EVEN BEEN to Asia.

The problem in general is an AMERICAN one, and it's divided at that. Those offended are trying to PROJECT what they think eveyone should feel on EVERYONE else, including those who are NOT American.

NOW THAT's FAR more offensive to those I know of Japanese and Chinese descent than anything found in OA...honestly speaking.

The funny thing is that this isn't even a factor for most of those living in Asia. 99% of them haven't even heard of this book, BUT THEY HAVE heard about the protests regarding Hong Kong films and Japanese culture as well as Chinese culture and calling it racist. Why people are calling products MADE in Asia BY Asians as racist against Asians in America is perhaps one of the MOST INFURIATING items that they see sometimes.

I mean, one of my best friends is Japanese American, and if I put him and his comments in this thread (currently he's sitting right next to me), you guys would probably try to cancel him out immediately. He SEES why Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians would have problems with OA (because, it IS basically just a Japanese hollywood culture blanket on everything, rather than using other cultures or representing them). However, he does NOT agree that it's racist and really DISLIKES the representation that ONE GUY on youtube is trying to paint on ALL Asian-Americans.

The BIGGEST issue I think is white people are willing to listen to that ONE Asian voice which they sympathize with, but ignore a WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHERS who say...that doesn't represent us, that's not who we are or how we think.

The problem HE sees is that this action is trying to cancel out the contributions of actual Asians. IN fact, a LOT of this movement seems to be directed at cancelling out contributions Asians have made in various parts of the industry (as I mentioned, this book is one of the ONLY contributions from Asians in all of D&D for over 20 years, and with the number of Asian contributors was one of the products with the BIGGEST number of minorities contributing, though in a very small manner, in RPGs for many years) in the past. THAT bothers him a LOT more than what is in the book, because to him, it seems many are trying to cancel out Asian contributions and voices over the years.

This is a HOT issue though. OA relatively has no impact on the larger issue which is currently ongoing in East Asian-American culture today. There are much bigger items which have contributions by Asian-Americans in the past which are trying to be cancelled out today, and that actually bothers quite a number of them. What bothers them more is that there are Asian-Americans calling out to cancel much of this stuff, but to him and others like him, those individuals are actuallly just being USED by whites without even realizing it.

They don't want to be ERASED from history. They don't want their contributions ERASED from history. I think that's what bothers the older generation the most in relation to the younger generations. The younger generations that are jumping on board with this stuff don't realize that a LOT of it is simply an effort to erase any Asian-American influences from the past, and the contributions of Asian-Americans right along with them.

Japanese traditionally have been excited about parts of their culture being sent around the world and raising the notability of Japan (ninja's for example. They weren't what we see in American culture, but that aspect of hollywood has been taken and promoted by Japanese since then in many ways).

Japan may be only one part of Asia, but it IS part of Asia rather than being part of Canada or North America.

Edit: This is NOT to put down the issues, but to point out that this is a controversial item. There are DIFFERENT opinions on the matter that are voiced by different groups of people. It seems only ONE group is actually being listened to. I think it (OA) could be viewed as racist today in many ways, but that doesn't mean it is NECESSARILY viewed that way and only that way. I think that what we see in regards to OA is merely a reflection of a MUCH LARGER item going on today within North America, and the struggles many are going through in relation to how Asian-American culture is accepted, how it has been presented in the past, and the ongoing struggle against CURRENT racism against Asian-Americans in the Americas today. Over the past two years it has been at an all time high due to certain world events, and it's not been easy for many of them with the racism that's been directed towards them.

In that light, I think there will be views on both sides of the matter making the question of whether it is racist today or not one with a multi-dimensional aspect to it. It's hard to consider all those aspects because at times, they are on opposite ends of each other, even while those same people may agree on fighting against racism as a whole.

I find it interesting that a lot of this copies and borrows from entertainment made by Asians. Let’s excoriate Bruce Lee for making kung fu movies while we are at it.

it blends cultures no more or less than regular D&D. There are heroes and villains. It’s as accurate as D&D ever was.

I thought it was fun back in the day. I don’t think it made me think any less of Asian people.

I get as worked up about this as I do manga which features Americans or Europeans—-which is none.

 

[GreyLord]

This is part of why I asked some of my earlier questions.

...not sure why this double quoted, but...



I agree with some of this. Though, I think there's a point at which I end up circling back to the questions I had.

What's the comparative social/moral weight of a "friend" who isn't offended versus a friend who is?

If I'm not from an Asian culture, is it deemed racist or not racist to assume someone on YouTube channel represents some monolithic truth concerning what an entire culture feels?

One probably should not accept a youtube video as talking for everyone, especially everyone from a culture as broad and wide reaching as Asia, much less East-Asia, much less even just Asian-Americans from Canada. It's one voice out of millions...and many times that one voice doesn't represent the view most of them have. Sometimes there are several different opinions on a matter and one youtube voice does poorly at even stating all the different opinions on the matter.

I'm living in a time when an alignment entry in a MM for orcs is deemed racist because it assumes something about an entire group, but (at the same time) commentary from a YouTube channel is meant to represent an entire group. From the perspective of a writer working on a project or a business creating a product, it's difficult to discern what the correct way to approach something is deemed to be.

Not touching this one

My gut feeling is that offense should be avoided as a default position. At the same time, it feels somewhat racist and condescending to assume offense on behalf of a group.

I can empathize with feeling some offense at having a cultural or ethnic background lumped into some conglomeration of cultures. So, in terms of OA, I get that.

But the question of how to get it right so as to make most people happy while doing the least harm remains.

That could be a good thing to consider. OA is difficult in that though. Asian-Americans are actually a VERY SMALL percent of Asians worldwide. They don't even agree on these things today. There seems to be a rift between older Asian-Americans and younger Asian-Americans.

Their opinions may not even be applicable to anyplace other than their region of North America.

For example...

My Chinese friends in Europe actually do NOT LIKE being called Asian in general at all. It's too much of a blanket term for people from a massive continent. They'd rather even be called Oriental (though Chinese would be preferable in whichever language you are using) than Asian!

Are there times when creating a product which sells outweighs some of those concerns?

I've seen it said that "Oriental Adventures" is offensive as a name. How does that weigh against considering whether or not an American audience would even know what "Nippon Adventures" (or some other name) is?

Most would recognize Japanese Adventures, or Mythological Japan.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't know had I not been exposed to the word via the game Punch Out. A Japanese boxer ("Piston Honda") from that game used the word. When I was young, I didn't know what it meant, so I looked it up.

Not all of this is necessarily toward @Hussar
As I was responding, other comments popped up and prompted other thoughts.

I do appreciate actual commentary on the product and why it was seen as problematic for some Asian cultures. It has a lot of similarities to how Native Americans are often viewed as one culture, despite there being rather significant differences between many of the tribes.

Learning to see things from other points of view is something I find beneficial, both at the gaming table and beyond.

I think it is a difficult topic right now. The different views on the matter make it so that trying to appease everyone is not going to happen. The wisest thing for WotC to do is what they have already done. Make it available to those who want it with a disclaimer that recognizes the old product can be hurtful and painful for some people out there, and then don't touch anything else related to it (as in creating more material) with a 10 foot pole. Simply stay out of the matter and remain away from it.

 

[Hussar]

I find it interesting that a lot of this copies and borrows from entertainment made by Asians. Let’s excoriate Bruce Lee for making kung fu movies while we are at it.

it blends cultures no more or less than regular D&D. There are heroes and villains. It’s as accurate as D&D ever was.

I thought it was fun back in the day. I don’t think it made me think any less of Asian people.

I get as worked up about this as I do manga which features Americans or Europeans—-which is none.

Wait, what?

Bruce Lee - a Chinese person, makes kung fu movies, set in China, depicting Chinese culture.

Oriental Adventures - written by people who were not Chinese, who basically fully admit that they are ignoring and ignorant of any culture in Asia other than Japan, then present the book as representing Asian culture in a fantasy setting.

Again, had Oriental Adventures been presented like @Gamer Printer's fantastic Kaidan setting - a fantasy Japan - there would be far, far less of an issue. But it wasn't. It was presented as if Japanese culture is the only culture of note in East Asia, and then doubles down by using a fantasy China as a setting but overlaying Japanese culture.

And this isn't a problem?

 

[Jiggawatts]

One byproduct of the way things have gone the last few years and I think one of the most prevalent takeaways we are going to see perpetuated in the near future is that creative folks are going to have a sharp tendency to stay in their lane. They will feel a need to write and create art that is solely within their personal frame of reference and not veer outside of that in the slightest, because it is safer that way.