Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Willie the Duck]

No we're not. We've pointed y'all to a podcast that breaks down the text multiple times. We're just tired with engaging with the deniers over and over again.

So, I suppose I'll step into the hornet's nest with one example.

One of the main criticisms of the Oriental Adventures line and the Kara-Tur setting is that it is presented as a pan-Asian setting but takes most of its inspiration from Japanese culture as seen through Western eyes. In the Oriental Adventures hardcover, we're introduced to the samurai class, a misappropriation of a Japanese cultural element. In the Kara-Tur boxed set, NPCs of all the various nations are often described as having levels in the samurai class . . . . if they're from Japanese influenced Wa or Kozakura, Korean-inspired Koryo, or Chinese-inspired Shou Lung and T'u Lung.

The class itself is based on a stereotype of how the West views Japanese samurai, and then it is used to describe characters from all over Kara-Tur. When I was young, I didn't even notice or realize this was problematic. I've since listened to gamers much more familiar with Asian culture, geography, and history than I am and my eyes have been opened.

You want more examples? There are plenty. Are you REALLY interested or just throwing up blocks to the argument? If you truly are interested, listen to the Asians Represent podcast for some views from Asian-descent gamers. There are a lot of episodes, they are two-hours long each, the panel tends to wander a bit, they only cover mere pages per episode . . . . but it's right there, waiting for you . . . . if you are really, truly interested in learning.

ME? You think that's me? No, I'm hoping that I can get home and find my copy so I can actually provide some useful contribution to the thread. Because I'm tired of the Chud Maximuses walking away thinking the 'pwned the wokes' or whatever. And that's what I'm afraid is happening, because yes, although there's a podcast that can repeatedly be mentioned (letting someone else do the heavy lifting), no one here seems to have examples of our own, because apparently no one has the book anymore.

But please, explain how I'm putting up blocks. This ought to be rich.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm sure Asians Read has a lot of really good information in it, but not 3 minutes in on the first video and Daniel and Steve are assuming whether or not someone who worked on the book was Asian based on their name. "Kim Mohan is Asian". Um, no he's not. And your names are "Daniel" and "Steve" but unless someone has an Asian name they must not be Asian?

If you're gonna analyze a book, especially around racial/ethnic/cultural contexts, I would expect not falling into the same stereotypes and assumptions you're there to address. Assuming people are white based on their name is....problematic.

Sorry man, but you seem to be trying to de-legitimize their viewpoints because . . . . they are human and make mistakes.

You're not wrong. The bit about Kim Mohan was a bit cringey. There are other, similar examples. There are times where some panelists go looking for problems and find them . . . . only to be reined back in by others more familiar with the tropes.

I've listened to about half of the podcasts covering Oriental Adventures 1E, and a bit of the episodes covering OA 3E, the Kara-Tur boxed set, and the Al-Qadim boxed set. This group makes mistakes and misunderstandings all the time . . . . . but if you listen to even one of their podcasts in its entirety and your takeaway is . . . . about their screw-up on Kim Mohan's ethnicity . . . .

The Asians Represent panelists aren't elected representatives of the Asian-diaspora community. They're just a bunch of Asian nerds who want to talk about their experiences and views on how D&D and other RPG games deal poorly with Asian cultures. They are all hardcore nerds, but not all of them play D&D, and some of them who do have only started relatively recently. Several of the panelists are academics who specialize in Asian cultures. The panelists also change over time, with some regulars showing up almost every episode.

None of the panelists, to my knowledge, "grew up" with Oriental Adventures . . . . they're not that old. They are looking at OA with 21st century, millennial generation eyes. This is not a ye-old grognards OSR podcast. If you watch a couple of episodes, you start to get a feel for the regular panelists and their level of familiarity with D&D's development in the 70s, 80s, and 90s . . . . but none of them lived it. And that's okay.

They also, very purposefully, don't do any homework. Many of them have no experience with these books until the digital file is opened and reviewed, page-by-page, during the podcast. It's a choice that I'm not sure would be my preference, but it's a legit choice.

If you watch multiple episodes, you'll also see them gain more focus, start to coalesce their views, and even walk back some statements from prior episodes. These podcasts are messy, but the best out there on the topic and very good over all.

EDIT: I'm probably coming in too hot with you, @Sacrosanct, and also @Willie the Duck. If I've misunderstood your point, or piled too much into my response I apologize . . . . I'm just so tired of the crowd who refuse to see the issues with these books. I probably need to step back from the conversation for a while.

 

[Dire Bare]

ME? You think that's me? No, I'm hoping that I can get home and find my copy so I can actually provide some useful contribution to the thread. Because I'm tired of the Chud Maximuses walking away thinking the 'pwned the wokes' or whatever. And that's what I'm afraid is happening, because yes, although there's a podcast that can repeatedly be mentioned (letting someone else do the heavy lifting), no one here seems to have examples of our own, because apparently no one has the book anymore.

But please, explain how I'm putting up blocks. This ought to be rich.

EDIT: Sorry again @Willie the Duck. I was being unnecessarily hostile last night.

Relax. I certainly misunderstood your point, and my last paragraph there doesn't seem to apply to you. Okay.

I just did, however, give an example from the text. I didn't cite page numbers or provide scans . . . that's way too much work to try and convince folks who likely can't be convinced.

 

[Cadence]

ME? You think that's me? No, I'm hoping that I can get home and find my copy so I can actually provide some useful contribution to the thread. Because I'm tired of the Chud Maximuses walking away thinking the 'pwned the wokes' or whatever. And that's what I'm afraid is happening, because yes, although there's a podcast that can repeatedly be mentioned (letting someone else do the heavy lifting), no one here seems to have examples of our own, because apparently no one has the book anymore.

There are some more threads on this here from over the past four years that probably have some relevant things in them.

WotC - Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

With WotC's recent statement on making the game more inclusive in regards to racial issues, I should have predicted this would happen next. Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace The 1st Edition "Oriental Adventures" is probably one of the worst...

www.enworld.org

Do We Still Need "Oriental Adventures"?

Orientalism -- a wide-ranging term originally used to encompass depictions of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and East Asian cultures -- has gradually come to represent a more negative term. Should Dungeons & Dragons, known for two well-received books titled "Oriental Adventures," have another...

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

After reading a new in comicbook I am thinking this is the time we should talk about Oriental Adventures, Kara-Tur and wuxia genre in D&D. If I was Asian I would support a new Oriental Adventures like a bridge to help Asian culture to be known by the Western public. This is not about to say...

www.enworld.org

 

[MGibster]

One of the main criticisms of the Oriental Adventures line and the Kara-Tur setting is that it is presented as a pan-Asian setting but takes most of its inspiration from Japanese culture as seen through Western eyes.

While this is a valid criticism, I see it as culturally insensitive rather than racist. Offensive? Sure, I wouldn't want someone thinking I ate poutine or enjoyed all dressed flavored Ruffles just because I'm on the same continent as Canada. It's not like we treat western fantasy settings any differently.

The class itself is based on a stereotype of how the West views Japanese samurai, and then it is used to describe characters from all over Kara-Tur. When I was young, I didn't even notice or realize this was problematic. I've since listened to gamers much more familiar with Asian culture, geography, and history than I am and my eyes have been opened.

This critique ignores that Japan has been sharing their stereotypes of samurai with the world for decades now. These stereotypes of samurai are also found in Japanese movies such as Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, the Samurai Trilogy starring Toshiro Mifune as Miyamoto Musashi, and in more recent movies like 13 Assassins. It isn't just how the west views samurai it's how much of the fiction originating in Japan has presented the samurai to us.

 

[Hussar]

OK for what it's worth I have decided to add my 2 cents to the mix. It's a long thread so forgive me for not going back to quote or react to particular posts. I am probably saying some things quite similar to some posters but I think/hope not just repeating what has been said before.
/snip despite fantastically well thought out stuff
Getting actual Japanese people to test your game is good but assuming that means it's then Asian approved is just another way of saying "but you're all the same aren't you" when you get down to it.

This post needs to be circled, highlighted and framed. THIS is the argument in a nutshell. Well said you. I wish I could posrep it more than once.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Relax. I certainly misunderstood your point, and my last paragraph there doesn't seem to apply to you. Okay.

I just did, however, give an example from the text. I didn't cite page numbers or provide scans . . . that's way too much work to try and convince folks who likely can't be convinced.

Y'know what, in retrospect unless you went back through the thread and checked who said what, how would you know? I shouldn't have exploded. "if you are really, truly interested in learning" was not a good way to sway anyone, but I that wasn't it, I was upset at being mistaken for the unconvincibles, which again, how would you know?
I'm just on edge because I can imagine them going back to their echo chambers and crow that we couldn't come up with discrete, clear references (excepting by subcontracting the aske to 2 hour podcasts to which they won't listen).
I think you are right about the effort one should dedicate to those who likely can't be convinced. Honestly, we don't owe someone else the effort to make the case for inclusion again and again. That's almost self-sealioning. OP asked relatively nicely, and I'd like to take it at face value as an honest question, but in the end the response can be, simply, 'there are plenty of resources out there, if you want to do this examination yourself <and here are a few>'.

 

[Hussar]

One byproduct of the way things have gone the last few years and I think one of the most prevalent takeaways we are going to see perpetuated in the near future is that creative folks are going to have a sharp tendency to stay in their lane. They will feel a need to write and create art that is solely within their personal frame of reference and not veer outside of that in the slightest, because it is safer that way.

I think your concerns are completely unfounded. This hasn't happened yet, and there are no signs that it's going to.

Considering that there has been more original, novel length genre fiction (I am talking about original works, not including Magic the Gathering novels or Star Wars novels or things like that) written in the past twenty years than in the previous hundred, I really, really don't think that there's any likelihood of people being forced to "stay in their lane". I just finished off watching The Expanse. There's a really, really popular series of books written by two very white dudes dealing with all sorts of elements of race and whatnot. And, funnily enough, no problems with having to "stay in their lane".

It's almost as if writers get respect and admiration when they take the time to create believable cultures that aren't grounded in racist stereotypes.

 

[ryu289]

Speaking as a non-white gamer, I think that any time you go seeking racism in RPG material, you will find it, because RPGs are, at their core, about stereotypes. And stereotypes are, by today's standards, racist.

"By today's standards"? It's the fact we can do better research now on different cultures and see how they are DIFFERENT, shows that the standards probably weren't that good then.

 

[Hussar]

While this is a valid criticism, I see it as culturally insensitive rather than racist.

/snip

Is it really necessary to split hairs like that? Does making it culturally insensitive somehow make it more acceptable than being racist? Is there some sort of spectrum we should be working from here where we can rather arbitrarily draw some imaginary line between stuff that's just a little bit racist, but that's okay and stuff that is just too racist?

Ok, it's culturally insensitive. Great. Now, how does your reaction to "culturally insensitive" differ from "racist"?