D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Scribe]

It really doesn't.

All it requires is for people to stop thinking of martial as mundane. 5e has plenty of existing mechanics to make it happen - superiority dice being just one example.

I dont think I agree with this, at least under the most basic assumptions of 5e.

Its just too basic a framework, to me, to provide enough distinction. Martials (basic Fighter as the poster child) should be mundane. The problem comes, again just my view here, in the fact the underlying mechanics are so simple, magic is a catch all answer, magic items have been relegated to some kind of optional system, and...yeah.

I dont know, I think it could be resolved, but for me, I dont think its going to be possible in 5e without a supplement like Level Up, and even that isnt going far enough for me.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Can Jackie Chan or John McCain fight a Dragon? Or a T-Rex?

Is the dragon in a place where there is matter?

then Jackie Chan can.

Is the dragon smug about its inevitable victory?

The John McClain can.

I'm not familiar with everything John McCain was in. I've only seen him on that CSPAN show.

 

[Mort]

But that's the problem: any sufficiently amazing high level martial ability is indistinguishable from low level magic. Even if your rogue can never fail a lockpick or stealth so good she's invisible, congratulations, you're as good as a third level wizard.

This gets a big "And...?"from me. A 5th level warlock can take an invocation that allows them to be invisible at will (as an action and as long as they are in dim light or darkness).

Why can't a rogue of sufficiently high level be "so stealthy" as to effectively be invisible at will too - it doesn't have to be magic.

The designers have started leaking stuff like this in - and it's great. For ex. the gloomstalker ranger is invisible to darkvision - it's not magic it just is.

Plenty of ways to give martials good stuff without magic or breaking the balance of the game.

 

[Oofta]

really? if at level 6 your fighter (18 str) could jump could running jump 7 feet and at level 7 they took an option to jump 21 feet that would be noticeable at level 7 when wizards can dimension door 500ft?

for the record real people in the real world have jumped 29.xxx almost 30 feet. so this isn't even super human

If you can long jump 3 times your strength a fighter with 20 strength could jump 60 feet (54 feet for 18 strength) while wearing plate mail holding a shield and sword while wearing a backpack. That's double the world record. I have no idea idea where you're getting 21 feet.

But yes, wizards can teleport. So? Can they do it all day, repeatedly? Give that fighter boots of springing and striding and they can jump that 60 feet all day long.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you can long jump 3 times your strength a fighter with 20 strength could jump 60 feet (54 feet for 18 strength) while wearing plate mail holding a shield and sword while wearing a backpack.

Yes. That's awesome.

But yes, wizards can teleport. So? Can they do it all day, repeatedly? Give that fighter boots of springing and striding and they can jump that 60 feet all day long.

The solution is to involve a wizard in the process still?

 

[Mort]

I dont think I agree with this, at least under the most basic assumptions of 5e.

Its just too basic a framework, to me, to provide enough distinction. Martials (basic Fighter as the poster child) should be mundane. The problem comes, again just my view here, in the fact the underlying mechanics are so simple, magic is a catch all answer, magic items have been relegated to some kind of optional system, and...yeah.

I dont know, I think it could be resolved, but for me, I dont think its going to be possible in 5e without a supplement like Level Up, and even that isnt going far enough for me.

I guess my question is why? Why must martials (even "basic" fighters) be mundane?

They live in the same world as the casters, they are also part of the same mythical framework. Is it just so hard to conceive that things other than magic can boost up the fighter? Inner skill, focus - whatever you wish to call it?

It's easy to model in the existing 5e framework, the designers have already been doing it - and are doing it to a greater extent in more recent supplements.

 

[Oofta]

That's part of the problem: Hercules is half-God. Archilies has magic skin. Steve Rodgers has a magic serum, Peter Parker has magical spider powers. None of them are mundane people. The closest you get is someone like Hawkeye or Black Widow, who just feel like high level character and are still outclassed by Thor or Scarlett Witch.

But that's the problem: any sufficiently amazing high level martial ability is indistinguishable from low level magic. Even if your rogue can never fail a lockpick or stealth so good she's invisible, congratulations, you're as good as a third level wizard.

Hawkeye never misses though, according to the MCEU he once tried golf and got a hole in one every single time.

 

[Cadence]

Are marines super?

I'm pretty sure they aren't going just as fast as without...

 

[DND_Reborn]

But yes, wizards can teleport. So? Can they do it all day, repeatedly? Give that fighter boots of springing and striding and they can jump that 60 feet all day long.

This is where I think things like uses for Action Surge or HD can come into play.

If a Fighter could take another action with Action Surge, why not allow it to double his jump distance?

Or HD could be used as a mechanic to allow mundane martials to do the more heroic "legendary" type maneuvers, even if on a limited basis.

I think there is plenty of room for development here, if WotC ever cared to tackle it and make martial-players happier about it.

 

[Scribe]

I guess my question is why? Why must martials (even "basic" fighters) be mundane?

They live in the same world as the casters, they are also part of the same mythical framework. Is it just so hard to conceive that things other than magic can boost up the fighter? Inner skill, focus - whatever you wish to call it?

It's easy to model in the existing 5e framework, the designers have already been doing it - and are doing it to a greater extent in more recent supplements.

Personal preference. Thats it, thats all.

I want my Fighter to be just a real dude, strapping on his armour and picking up his sword (both magical) and standing in there killing the demon, just like 'we' could do, if given the gear.

Not sure if that makes sense. It offers a different path of immersion.