both can with ease and win if one shows up... that's kinda there deal they get beat up but win the day no matter the odds
D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic
- Thread starter HammerMan
- Start date
Lyxen
Great Old One
Actually, no. 5e did bring the casters down quite a notch, actually, server notches, by severely restricting high level slots and especially concentration.
It was not the equalisation that created the problem IMHO, it's that spells were gone. Call it tradition or call it preference, that was a fundamental change that had nothing to do with power.
And you are left with the age-old methods of balancing the game by balancing the type of challenge (again, antimagic, magic resistance), it worked really well in all editions I ran.
and there it is... not that it hurts the game not that it matters at all. if you do it with magic it is fine, but if you do it with "special fighter abilities" it is wrong... even if it is "legendary or epic fighter ablilty" but a magic item no big deal...
Have you seen how slow D&D running speeds are?
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They have been doing it, but not for fighters (and rogues). Every other class has some sort of supernatural excuse for that stuff, but fighters and rogues don't. And that is always going to limit them, because a sizable contingent of players like it that way. If you want to play a fighter with supernatural abilities, use magic items, play a class that supports that narrative, or create your own.
I don't mind there being an "everyman" class, I am not even married to names. But if fighter is the everyman I want the legendary warrior.
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
Hmmm...let's get out the spitballs and see where this goes...
First, the casters...I've already done a couple of things with them in my game/system/setting that "curbs" them to a degree.
Reining in the spell progression seems the first/"no brainer" option. Contrary to @DND_Reborn 's earlier suggestion, whereing the slow down is at the earlier levels (which I found interesting and could make for an intriguing and challenging mode for caster play), I altered my progression charts in two significant ways.
One is to slow down at higher level spells vs. lower. Spell levels 1-3 begin, as expected, every other level. 2 1st level spells at 1st level, 1 spell per spell level after. Spell levels 4-6, continue to be gained every other level: 4th level at 7th, 5th level spells at 9th, 6th level spells at 11th. as we all know and love.
All copacetic? Ok.
The spells for 2nd-6th are gained at a rate of levels per number. That is, for one level, you get 1 spell. You have 2 spell slots for 2 levels of experience. 3 spell slots for 3 levels, etc...
Now it gets...different..., as I understand we're specifically looking at/concerned with 10th-20th level play here.
The second change is to completely change/remove the automatic use and acquisition of 7th-9th level spells. This third "tier" of spell power level I have cordoned off as "Transcendent Spell Tiers" or "Inter-tiered Spells."
The progression begins with 1 7th level spell at 13th...You don't get any 8th level slot until 16th. And add one 9th level slot at 19th, 2 at 20th. So, for one thing, that's slower. Also, you do not get -I mean, physically CAN not cast- more than 3 of each in a day. You'd kill yourself attempting to siphon that much arcane energy in a 24 hour period.
That is:
level Spell 7th...8th...9th
13th. . . . . . 1
14th. . . . . . 2
15th. . . . . . 3
16th. . . . . . 3 . . . 1
17th. . . . . . 3 . . . 2
18th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3
19th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3 . . . 1
20th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3 . . . 2
The next is, this is not an automatic "spells you know/have can cast in addition to all of your 1st-6th."
You have to combine your lower level spell slots, in any combination of available spells (prepared or not) that can add up to the necessary trans-tier number. To cast that many of the 7th spell, e.g., you need to expend/give up a 3rd and 4th level spell/slot, or three 2nd level spells and a 1st, or whatever combo to get to 7. Then you can use the 7th level spell you know/have prepared.
You are also incapacitated (prohibited from casting anything but cantrips or 1st level spells) physically, mentally and magically exhausted, for a number of rounds equal to the trans-tiered spell you cast beyond 3rd. I.e., 4 rounds for a 7th level spell, 5 rounds for an 8th level spell, 6 rounds for a 9th level spell.
I feel that when you get to those serious reality warping effects, that is a seriously difficult thing to achieve, let alone maintain with all of your other, "lesser" magics.
So the wicked "Archmage" just winging around 7th/8th/9th level spells for multiple rounds in a row is NOT a thing in my world. That helps a good bit. Also, often, requires some planning and "strateggery" if a spell of that power is warranted.
For the "Mundane" Martials, I feel like there are a lot of things that can happen well shy of supernatural/wuxia/magic-seeming superheroics.
Taking the Fighter as an individual case: Extra attacks make a huge difference. And while it might hit a point where it seems implausible I, personally, have no trouble imagining a very high (10+) level Fighter making 5, 6,...8?... individual attacks (melee or ranged) per round. The wizard is casting one spell...the Fighter is slamming a half dozen guys....or hitting the Big Bad a half dozen times? Totally seems "fair"/balanced to me.
Another thing that seems "no brainery"...Hit Points and (at least situational) Save bonuses. The Fighter fights. The Fighter can not fight if the fighter is bleeding out on the floor. The Fighter's capacity for standing on his/her feet and -oft forgotten!- soaking up hits for their compatriots (thus keeping THEM on their feet) is nearly HALF of any warrior type doing their job!
I see zero reason that a Fighter experienced beyond, let's say... 15th? Yeah, sounds fair. At 15th+ level, whatever weapon attack the fighter makes -enchanted weapon or no- is able to begin piercing a degree of magical resistance. That is, their attack counts as a magical weapon for the purposes of bypassing magic resistance or immunities.
Along the same lines, I think I would allow a FIghter of 15th plus to begin negating/has experience in avoiding or combatting spell attacks of various kinds. For example:
Level
15th: A Fighter with a weapon or shield in hand can deflect/negate/ignore a ranged attack of a 1st or 2nd level spell individually directed at them. Not applicable to area effects.
16th: A Fighter makes additional saves to 1st-thru-3rd level enchantments, charms, or compulsions (and supernatural effects that duplicate same) to which they have succumbed. You roll a new save, 1 per round after the failed save, up to a number rounds equal to their Constitution modifier. In effect, you can "break yourself out of" superimposed mental commands.
17th: deflect/negate/ignore a directed ranged spell attack of 3rd or 4th level. Halve damage (1/4 if save successful) from 1st or 2nd area effect spells or supernatural effects that simulate 1st or 2nd level spell effects. Halve damage (1/4 with save) from any breath weapon.
18th: makes additional saves for enchantment, charm and compulsion spells/supernatural effects of 4th-thru-6th level, as above.
19th: The Fighter can deflect/negate/ignore a directed ranged spell attack of 5th or 6th level, halve damage (1/4 with save) from 3rd-4th level area effects, and can ignore/negate damage from 1st or 2nd level directed or area effect spells/supernatural powers.
20th: Effectively 1st-4th level spell immunity. Halve damage (1/4 with save) from 5th and 6th level area effects and supernatural effects of commensurate power.
They aren't magical or supernatural...they just know how to deflect, slice through, properly cover, mentally steel themselves against, or some other narrative way of avoiding damage/debilitating effects of magic, breath weapons, stay on the feet longer and attack (thus potential to hit) more often than all other classes are capable.
Sounds to me like such a Fighter would have a decent chance toe-to-toe against some similarly leveled mage.
First, the casters...I've already done a couple of things with them in my game/system/setting that "curbs" them to a degree.
Reining in the spell progression seems the first/"no brainer" option. Contrary to @DND_Reborn 's earlier suggestion, whereing the slow down is at the earlier levels (which I found interesting and could make for an intriguing and challenging mode for caster play), I altered my progression charts in two significant ways.
One is to slow down at higher level spells vs. lower. Spell levels 1-3 begin, as expected, every other level. 2 1st level spells at 1st level, 1 spell per spell level after. Spell levels 4-6, continue to be gained every other level: 4th level at 7th, 5th level spells at 9th, 6th level spells at 11th. as we all know and love.
All copacetic? Ok.
The spells for 2nd-6th are gained at a rate of levels per number. That is, for one level, you get 1 spell. You have 2 spell slots for 2 levels of experience. 3 spell slots for 3 levels, etc...
Now it gets...different..., as I understand we're specifically looking at/concerned with 10th-20th level play here.
The second change is to completely change/remove the automatic use and acquisition of 7th-9th level spells. This third "tier" of spell power level I have cordoned off as "Transcendent Spell Tiers" or "Inter-tiered Spells."
The progression begins with 1 7th level spell at 13th...You don't get any 8th level slot until 16th. And add one 9th level slot at 19th, 2 at 20th. So, for one thing, that's slower. Also, you do not get -I mean, physically CAN not cast- more than 3 of each in a day. You'd kill yourself attempting to siphon that much arcane energy in a 24 hour period.
That is:
level Spell 7th...8th...9th
13th. . . . . . 1
14th. . . . . . 2
15th. . . . . . 3
16th. . . . . . 3 . . . 1
17th. . . . . . 3 . . . 2
18th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3
19th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3 . . . 1
20th. . . . . . 3 . . . 3 . . . 2
The next is, this is not an automatic "spells you know/have can cast in addition to all of your 1st-6th."
You have to combine your lower level spell slots, in any combination of available spells (prepared or not) that can add up to the necessary trans-tier number. To cast that many of the 7th spell, e.g., you need to expend/give up a 3rd and 4th level spell/slot, or three 2nd level spells and a 1st, or whatever combo to get to 7. Then you can use the 7th level spell you know/have prepared.
You are also incapacitated (prohibited from casting anything but cantrips or 1st level spells) physically, mentally and magically exhausted, for a number of rounds equal to the trans-tiered spell you cast beyond 3rd. I.e., 4 rounds for a 7th level spell, 5 rounds for an 8th level spell, 6 rounds for a 9th level spell.
I feel that when you get to those serious reality warping effects, that is a seriously difficult thing to achieve, let alone maintain with all of your other, "lesser" magics.
So the wicked "Archmage" just winging around 7th/8th/9th level spells for multiple rounds in a row is NOT a thing in my world. That helps a good bit. Also, often, requires some planning and "strateggery" if a spell of that power is warranted.
For the "Mundane" Martials, I feel like there are a lot of things that can happen well shy of supernatural/wuxia/magic-seeming superheroics.
Taking the Fighter as an individual case: Extra attacks make a huge difference. And while it might hit a point where it seems implausible I, personally, have no trouble imagining a very high (10+) level Fighter making 5, 6,...8?... individual attacks (melee or ranged) per round. The wizard is casting one spell...the Fighter is slamming a half dozen guys....or hitting the Big Bad a half dozen times? Totally seems "fair"/balanced to me.
Another thing that seems "no brainery"...Hit Points and (at least situational) Save bonuses. The Fighter fights. The Fighter can not fight if the fighter is bleeding out on the floor. The Fighter's capacity for standing on his/her feet and -oft forgotten!- soaking up hits for their compatriots (thus keeping THEM on their feet) is nearly HALF of any warrior type doing their job!
I see zero reason that a Fighter experienced beyond, let's say... 15th? Yeah, sounds fair. At 15th+ level, whatever weapon attack the fighter makes -enchanted weapon or no- is able to begin piercing a degree of magical resistance. That is, their attack counts as a magical weapon for the purposes of bypassing magic resistance or immunities.
Along the same lines, I think I would allow a FIghter of 15th plus to begin negating/has experience in avoiding or combatting spell attacks of various kinds. For example:
Level
15th: A Fighter with a weapon or shield in hand can deflect/negate/ignore a ranged attack of a 1st or 2nd level spell individually directed at them. Not applicable to area effects.
16th: A Fighter makes additional saves to 1st-thru-3rd level enchantments, charms, or compulsions (and supernatural effects that duplicate same) to which they have succumbed. You roll a new save, 1 per round after the failed save, up to a number rounds equal to their Constitution modifier. In effect, you can "break yourself out of" superimposed mental commands.
17th: deflect/negate/ignore a directed ranged spell attack of 3rd or 4th level. Halve damage (1/4 if save successful) from 1st or 2nd area effect spells or supernatural effects that simulate 1st or 2nd level spell effects. Halve damage (1/4 with save) from any breath weapon.
18th: makes additional saves for enchantment, charm and compulsion spells/supernatural effects of 4th-thru-6th level, as above.
19th: The Fighter can deflect/negate/ignore a directed ranged spell attack of 5th or 6th level, halve damage (1/4 with save) from 3rd-4th level area effects, and can ignore/negate damage from 1st or 2nd level directed or area effect spells/supernatural powers.
20th: Effectively 1st-4th level spell immunity. Halve damage (1/4 with save) from 5th and 6th level area effects and supernatural effects of commensurate power.
They aren't magical or supernatural...they just know how to deflect, slice through, properly cover, mentally steel themselves against, or some other narrative way of avoiding damage/debilitating effects of magic, breath weapons, stay on the feet longer and attack (thus potential to hit) more often than all other classes are capable.
Sounds to me like such a Fighter would have a decent chance toe-to-toe against some similarly leveled mage.
So what if spellcasting and attunement interferes with each other (so fighters could attune more than half casters more than full casters)? Or are most of the good fighter gear not things that attune?
Sure, personal preference makes sense. But:
The fighter isn't just some "real dude." He grew up in a mythical world next to guys throwing fireballs and teleporting around. He can do and take HUGE amounts of damage to monsters that are much scarier than the RL has to offer. But jumping 31 feet without magic is a no-no?
Let's say it's "you," you get into the magical world with it's magical world reality. You start at 1st level (or even 0 level) but you advance (or die trying) - wouldn't you pick up a few extra tricks, learn a few things you might not learn in the RL as you advance in level? Thinking of fighters in the RL is a bit of a crutch!
Scribe
Legend
Yeah a high level prestige class would be ideal for such a thing...gazes over at 3/3.5 with longing....
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