Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Dire Bare]

While this is a valid criticism, I see it as culturally insensitive rather than racist. Offensive? Sure, I wouldn't want someone thinking I ate poutine or enjoyed all dressed flavored Ruffles just because I'm on the same continent as Canada. It's not like we treat western fantasy settings any differently.

"Cultural insensitive" and "racist" are two different points on the same continuum. No one's claiming that the authors and designers behind the OA line are klan members or even explicitly racist folks. Their intent was to celebrate, respect, and include Asian cultures in D&D. They were not fully successful, in large part because of the time these products were written and the resources that were available.

This critique ignores that Japan has been sharing their stereotypes of samurai with the world for decades now. These stereotypes of samurai are also found in Japanese movies such as Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, the Samurai Trilogy starring Toshiro Mifune as Miyamoto Musashi, and in more recent movies like 13 Assassins. It isn't just how the west views samurai it's how much of the fiction originating in Japan has presented the samurai to us.

This critique doesn't ignore your point, your point isn't relevant to the critique. Is the samurai stereotyped within Japanese culture and media? Yes. Has Japanese media taken the samurai world-wide for decades now? Yes.

Not relevant. Many of the cultures in Kara-Tur are closely modeled on non-Japanese real-world cultures. To describe their inhabitants as samurai is offensive to some folks of Asian descent, Japanese or otherwise. It bothered everyone on the Asians Represents panel, and they aren't alone. It doesn't bother all Asian-descent gamers, but that doesn't make the critique less valid.

 

[MGibster]

Unfortunately, an easy and cheap rhetorical technique is to latch onto inconsistencies and try to use that to undermine the people who are trying to argue a position that acknowledges the messiness.

This is also how you engage in a debate as well. Think of an argument as a dining room table. Your conclusion is the table top which is supported by your premises which are the table legs. If your premises are faulty then it won't support the table top.

 

[MGibster]

This critique doesn't ignore your point, your point isn't relevant to the critique. Is the samurai stereotyped within Japanese culture and media? Yes. Has Japanese media taken the samurai world-wide for decades now? Yes.

I don't agree. I think any critique of OA that doesn't take into account the influence Japanese media on Americans is faulty.

 

[Deset Gled]

As someone who played with 3e OA a lot and 1e OA very little, I would say that I don't consider either racist based on the standards when they were written. I would expect a lot of editing to be done if WotC wanted to release a new version (most notably, the name itself "Oriental Adventures" would have to be changed), but it could be done respectfully and tastefully. Just like current versions of gods, demons, and monsters reference a weird mixture of mythology and folklore while attempting to minimize offense to real world cultures and religions, the same could be done with a predominantly Asian influence.

 

[Jiggawatts]

I am curious, what is the prevailing opinion on modern Legend of the Five Rings?

 

[Bill Zebub]

This is also how you engage in a debate as well. Think of an argument as a dining room table. Your conclusion is the table top which is supported by your premises which are the table legs. If your premises are faulty then it won't support the table top.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the premises (in this case) aren't mathematical equations, and don't lead to clean answers. There is no solution that neatly solves all the problems. That's just the nature of hard problems.

But the absence of perfect answers and clean solutions does not meant the premises are invalid or faulty.

 

[Bill Zebub]

what is the prevailing opinion

Is there any such thing, on any topic?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't agree. I think any critique of OA that doesn't take into account the influence Japanese media on Americans is faulty.

The other thing to try and remember is that many of these issues that keep getting raised were addressed by the author (Zeb Cook) at the time. From his introduction-

The bulk of this material deals with Japan, with China a close second. This is not due to any oversight. ... From the standpoint of gaming, Japan's history and culture provides greater opportunities for adventure and advancement. ... Of course, anyone who looks carefully at China will find the same occurred there. However, fewer people cared to write about it.

...But accuracy can often be unplayable or just unacceptable. ...and rules that apply to a Japanese culture would certainly be incorrect in strict Chinese culture! Furthermore, the world presented had to be what people think the Orient is, not necessarily what it actually is. Thus, reference sources went beyond books and included popular Japanese movies about samurai and ninja, the whole family of Hong Kong kung-fu movies, comics, and even those endearing epics of giant reptiles and funny dinosaurs.

OA, p. 4 (emphasis supplied).


Many of the issues discussed are complex here; everything from the difference between issues that affect cultures (such as those in Japan and China) as opposed to issues that affect the Asian diaspora in North America. Examining this book can tell you a lot about systemic issues as they existed in 1985, but what shines though in most places is that, compared to most material at that time and certainly in comparison to most gaming material, OA was very much ahead of its time, in the research done, appreciation of the differences, and use of playtesters for critique and feedback.

Compared to the stereotypes that the 80s often visited upon us (such as Lung Duk Dong in Sixteen Candles), it was much better. That said, it can also be a useful lens to examine the ways in which even the better works necessarily fell into the same traps of that time period. Unfortunately, those conversations tend to require nuance, which is a quality sorely lacking in most of these discussions.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

 

[MGibster]

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the premises (in this case) aren't mathematical equations, and don't lead to clean answers. There is no solution that neatly solves all the problems. That's just the nature of hard problems.

Yes, but what you call cheap rhetorical techniques are what others, at least me, considers normal debating techniques. You go after someone's premises and that's especially true when they're weak and inconsistent.

 

[Dire Bare]

I have a basic issue of the critics assuming the mantle of all Asians (or Chinese or whatever) when we are talking about a Canadian guy from Toronto looking at it from their lens.

I lived in China for 5 years and if you think the stereotypes are bad in OA, you should see the historical dramas on mainstream TV in China.

I think as a RPG supplement for the time is obviously not meant to be racist but is, like most books in TRPG shallow and reliant on tropes.

I wish there was less energy spent on complaining about decades old books for a system barely played and more effort spent on modern books that are better.

None of the critics of OA claim to speak for all Asians. Where did you get that impression?

The panelists of the Asian Represent podcast are not the only voices expressing discomfort with Oriental Adventures. They are also a diverse group, they're all Asians, they're all nerds, but they come from different ethnic backgrounds, educational backgrounds, and different careers, different gaming/nerd preferences. One thing they all have in common is making clear they DON'T speak for all Asians, nor do they pretend to.

Oriental Adventures is "out-of-print" . . . kinda. You can easily still purchase digital books, and POD (print-on-demand) versions are available for most (all?) titles in the line. And the issues of Asian representation in D&D started with the Oriental Adventures hardcover . . . . but persist to this day in current 5E products, if to a lesser degree.