Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Bill Zebub]

The standards of today, where white people feel they need to be outraged on my behalf, is highly annoying, and to my way of thinking, racist. My people are not child-like; if we are offended, we can speak up without help.

And yet, when they do speak up, there are those who try to discount that voice.

Also, your caricature of white people who feel the need to be outraged on your behalf is a gross exaggeration/generalization. There are always exceptions, of course, but for myself, as a white person who sides with those asking for change, I'm not outraged on anybody's behalf. I'm not even "outraged" by the content in question. I've heard the arguments and I think, "Yeah, that makes sense. I'll support these changes." If anything, I guess I feel a little sheepish for attitudes I held in my youth, when I usually mocked or belittled both the questions being raised, or the people raising them.

I guess it's ironic that when I do get fired up, it's for people acting like I used to. But it's not on anybody's "behalf".

 

[Umbran]

Usually when I see racist material it's typically designed to denigrate a group of people.

Here is where we can constructively differentiate between "racist" and "bigoted".

A book that is racially offensive because the author intended to do that is bigoted. A book that is racially offensive because the author didn't mean any harm, but didn't know enough to hire a sensitivity reader, could be considered racist.

And we do need that differentiation, because there are lots of real problems from people who intend no harm, but cause it due to ignorance, lack of forethought, or insufficient understanding of consequences.

 

[Umbran]

My people are not child-like; if we are offended, we can speak up without help.

I'm sorry to say, but... you don't speak for all your people.

You tell us that we should remain silent. But history and many in various minority communities tell us that our silence communicates complicity, agreement, and acceptance.

So, until we are presented with a consensus, the best we can do is educate ourselves as best we can, and choose accordingly.

 

[Jd Smith1]

And yet, when they do speak up, there are those who try to discount that voice.

Also, your caricature of white people who feel the need to be outraged on your behalf is a gross exaggeration/generalization. There are always exceptions, of course, but for myself, as a white person who sides with those asking for change, I'm not outraged on anybody's behalf. I'm not even "outraged" by the content in question. I've heard the arguments and I think, "Yeah, that makes sense. I'll support these changes." If anything, I guess I feel a little sheepish for attitudes I held in my youth, when I usually mocked or belittled both the questions being raised, or the people raising them.

I guess it's ironic that when I do get fired up, it's for people acting like I used to. But it's not on anybody's "behalf".

It might be a 'gross exaggeration/generalization' to you, but it is what I believe and how I feel, and I am far from alone in this.

As to your motivations, the simple truth is that I don't believe you. I always find it telling that many white people expect that non-whites will believe them when they claim to be on our side. History certainly should teach you otherwise; it certainly has taught us.

But this isn't the thread nor the time.

 

[MGibster]

The standards of today, where white people feel they need to be outraged on my behalf, is highly annoying, and to my way of thinking, racist. My people are not child-like; if we are offended, we can speak up without help.

I'm not sure were to draw the line here. When I see something that's racist it's not that I'm offended on behalf of someone else it's that it runs counter to my own personal values. The offensive image/behavior/statement doesn't have to be directed at me to run counter to my values.

A book that is racially offensive because the author intended to do that is bigoted. A book that is racially offensive because the author didn't mean any harm, but didn't know enough to hire a sensitivity reader, could be considered racist.

That's fair. In employment we have disparate treatment and disparate impact with the former being deliberate and the latter being unintentional. Although it does appear that TSR hired the closest thing to sensitivity readers they had in the 80s to go over OA.

 

[Umbran]

That's fair. In employment we have disparate treatment and disparate impact with the former being deliberate and the latter being unintentional.

Same basic idea, yes.

Although it does appear that TSR hired the closest thing to sensitivity readers they had in the 80s to go over OA.

Sure. But the closest thing to it may not have been good enough to keep them from a large number of pitfalls. We hope to reach the levels of wisdom where we can say that the resulting work is racist, but the authors weren't bad people for it.

 

[Bill Zebub]

As to your motivations, the simple truth is that I don't believe you. I always find it telling that many white people expect that non-whites will believe them when they claim to be on our side. History certainly should teach you otherwise; it certainly has taught us.

Ok, you caught me. I really just want to annex your land and build shopping malls on it.

WTF?

I mean, you've set up a scenario that can be argued with, right?

"Don't speak up for me, we don't need it."
"I'm not, but I do support you."
"Liar."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Although it does appear that TSR hired the closest thing to sensitivity readers they had in the 80s to go over OA.

I don't think the goal was sensitivity, though, as much as expertise. There's a big difference.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

I have a basic issue of the critics assuming the mantle of all Asians (or Chinese or whatever) when we are talking about a Canadian guy from Toronto looking at it from their lens.

I lived in China for 5 years and if you think the stereotypes are bad in OA, you should see the historical dramas on mainstream TV in China.

I think as a RPG supplement for the time is obviously not meant to be racist but is, like most books in TRPG shallow and reliant on tropes.

I wish there was less energy spent on complaining about decades old books for a system barely played and more effort spent on modern books that are better.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I wish there was less energy spent on complaining about decades old books for a system barely played and more effort spent on modern books that are better.

Seems to me not much energy is spent on the complaining, but a LOT of energy (for example, the origin of this thread) is spent on complaining about the complaining.