Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Jiggawatts]

I think your concerns are completely unfounded. This hasn't happened yet, and there are no signs that it's going to.

They aren't really "my concerns", more just an interesting subject I thought to bring up in the context of the topic at hand. You might be correct good sir, time will tell.

 

[MGibster]

Is it really necessary to split hairs like that? Does making it culturally insensitive somehow make it more acceptable than being racist? Is there some sort of spectrum we should be working from here where we can rather arbitrarily draw some imaginary line between stuff that's just a little bit racist, but that's okay and stuff that is just too racist?

I think it's important to differentiate between racism and other forms of transgression. If it isn't important than why even bothering classifying something as racist versus something else?

Ok, it's culturally insensitive. Great. Now, how does your reaction to "culturally insensitive" differ from "racist"?

Usually when I see racist material it's typically designed to denigrate a group of people. I don't really see that with OA's focus on Japan to the exclusion of most of the rest of Asia. i.e. I don't find that particular aspect of OA to be racist.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sorry man, but you seem to be trying to de-legitimize their viewpoints because . . . . they are human and make mistakes.

You're not wrong. The bit about Kim Mohan was a bit cringey. There are other, similar examples. There are times where some panelists go looking for problems and find them . . . . only to be reined back in by others more familiar with the tropes.

I've listened to about half of the podcasts covering Oriental Adventures 1E, and a bit of the episodes covering OA 3E, the Kara-Tur boxed set, and the Al-Qadim boxed set. This group makes mistakes and misunderstandings all the time . . . . . but if you listen to even one of their podcasts in its entirety and your takeaway is . . . . about their screw-up on Kim Mohan's ethnicity . . . .

The Asians Represent panelists aren't elected representatives of the Asian-diaspora community. They're just a bunch of Asian nerds who want to talk about their experiences and views on how D&D and other RPG games deal poorly with Asian cultures. They are all hardcore nerds, but not all of them play D&D, and some of them who do have only started relatively recently. Several of the panelists are academics who specialize in Asian cultures. The panelists also change over time, with some regulars showing up almost every episode.

None of the panelists, to my knowledge, "grew up" with Oriental Adventures . . . . they're not that old. They are looking at OA with 21st century, millennial generation eyes. This is not a ye-old grognards OSR podcast. If you watch a couple of episodes, you start to get a feel for the regular panelists and their level of familiarity with D&D's development in the 70s, 80s, and 90s . . . . but none of them lived it. And that's okay.

They also, very purposefully, don't do any homework. Many of them have no experience with these books until the digital file is opened and reviewed, page-by-page, during the podcast. It's a choice that I'm not sure would be my preference, but it's a legit choice.

If you watch multiple episodes, you'll also see them gain more focus, start to coalesce their views, and even walk back some statements from prior episodes. These podcasts are messy, but the best out there on the topic and very good over all.

EDIT: I'm probably coming in too hot with you, @Sacrosanct, and also @Willie the Duck. If I've misunderstood your point, or piled too much into my response I apologize . . . . I'm just so tired of the crowd who refuse to see the issues with these books. I probably need to step back from the conversation for a while.

Im not trying to delegitimize them at all. They have a solid point on a lot of stuff.

I'm just saying that if you're gonna have a conversation about the problems of stereotyping and assumptions of a particular group, it doesn't help when you lead off stereotyping and making ethnic assumptions.

You know what they say about first impressions.

Which is a shame, because they absolutely do have a lot of valid points. I would caution assuming that any criticism of them automatically means one wants to delegitimize their argument. These are complex issues, and disagreeing with one aspect doesn't mean I disagree with all of the aspects of their argument.

 

[Hussar]

They aren't really "my concerns", more just an interesting subject I thought to bring up in the context of the topic at hand. You might be correct good sir, time will tell.

I just really have an issue with the idea that racism makes us more creative.

 

[Hussar]

/snip
If it isn't important than why even bothering classifying something as racist versus something else?

That would be my question, yes. Whether it's "racist" or "culturally insensitive" doesn't really seem like much of a distinction. But, then, from your definition of racism, it appears that the difference to you is intent. I simply don't care about intent because that's a rabbit hole that has no answer. It's extremely rare for any work to be deliberately racist. It does happen, sure, but, it's pretty rare. What you are defining as culturally insensitive, as in racist without intent, is far, far more common.

But, I'm not really seeing how it's any better. Whether you want to label it racist or culturally insensitive, it's still bad and shouldn't be done.

 

[MGibster]

But, I'm not really seeing how it's any better. Whether you want to label it racist or culturally insensitive, it's still bad and shouldn't be done.

I tell you what, since we both agree that a product called OA focusing almost entirely on Japan is bad let's just focus on that.

 

[Jiggawatts]

I just really have an issue with the idea that racism makes us more creative.

That is not at all what I meant. All I was saying is that people might be more and more likely to exercise an abundance of caution in their works.

I will now state my personal feelings on the matter. Ensuring something is not a negative caricature and that peoples and cultures are represented properly is a noble endeavor, I heartily encourage collaboration for such projects.

 

[Jd Smith1]

"By today's standards"? It's the fact we can do better research now on different cultures and see how they are DIFFERENT, shows that the standards probably weren't that good then.

Nah. My people got similar treatment in several game products, and it never bothered me, any more than it did to see settings where feudal or medieval peasants could pass for higher social classes. The fact is that gaming material is not written with a serious purpose in mind.

The standards of today, where white people feel they need to be outraged on my behalf, is highly annoying, and to my way of thinking, racist. My people are not child-like; if we are offended, we can speak up without help.

 

[Umbran]

Hey, Umbran.

Posters are now comparing K-pop stars to divisive American political figures.

Maybe you can shut down the thread?

Mod Note:
Each and every post has a link on it with which you can report it. This is pretty clearly commentary on moderation in-thread, which Morrus' rules pretty clearly ask you not to do.

So, you're done in this discussion.

 

[Umbran]

Candace Owens and Clarence Thomas

Mod Note:
You can talk about how people are badly treated without going to direct political commentary.

Next time, please use better judgement.