D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[TwoSix]

Because that 9th level spell is the caster's big deal at that point. Subclass features and class features for (many, admittedly not all!) martials is their "thing" in place of that. What are you going to give up for your Fighter or other martial to get that ability? Survivor, Extra Attack (2 or 3), Primal Champion, what?

Again, I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement for martials (I've said that there is in many threads...), but IMO that is a bit too much. If it works for you fine, I asked after all.

I wouldn't give up anything, personally, but I'm on record as thinking the 5e fighter is kinda blah. Of course, I'm also on record as saying that I think martials should control combat, and magic should be for support or for narrative control outside of combat.

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Impossible" is a really odd word when we are discussing fantastical settings and worlds that are magic themselves. The background itself is magical.

True, but for a lot of folks, humans are still humans regardless, no matter where they live, and they can't do anything humans in our world can't do without outside help.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's the problem. Wizard players feel that 'being the best forever and no one approaches the throne' is their nice thing.

That or that fighters have to be worse than regular athletes or else they're Superman.

Revenge of the Nerds is sadly baked into D&D's DNA.

 

[purplkrush]

This argument has been going on since the 1st edition of DnD. I've only DM'd up to 10th level characters but my current campaign has plot through 20. I'm super looking forward to pressing casters to their absolute limits while allowing fighter types the chance to shine like diamonds. Also, as a DM, casters should be desperate for high level magic to do things like: not die at the hands of their enemies and just to get enough information to START their high level quests. Above 10th level is sincerely High Fantasy. I think the Level UP 5E book that just dropped will do wonders for helping to bring balance to the classes and am starting to playtest the classes and mechanics in one shots my players are running right now. They've been most gracious in allowing me to try things out while we iron out the right mix of "advanced" classes and mechanics for us.

In addition to Level Up, I backed The Red Opera: Last Days of the Warlock on KS. The authors noted that higher level play isn't so much about winning individual fights but more so about making decisions that affect the rest of the world around them. High level play seems to me to be more about the players editing the story within certain confines to hopefully craft the ending THEY want. To that end, they'd better hope they have the spells and skills to make it happen.

The only major "nerf" I've made to casters is that casters receive no spells above level 5 for simply leveling up. Those spells need to be crafted by the individual (or found or gifted) and may require entire quests of their own simply to research, experiment and find the right components for the spells. As my players are majority engineers of various sorts, they were a little excited and worried by the "experiments" portion of that spell crafting.

 

[DND_Reborn]

SIDE NOTE:

I watched Dr. Strange this morning since I hadn't seen it in a long time, and watching all the fighting/martial arts they do, I don't think I would really qualify Dr. Strange as a wizard by any means...

 

[Mort]

True, but for a lot of folks, humans are still humans regardless, no matter where they live, and they can't do anything humans in our world can't do without outside help.

And THAT is the main issue. To me, that view is near non sensical.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, I even have the books! And plan to take a deep dive asap.

But we're discussing "core" 5e.

Fair enough. Is this a call to action for WotC to release new material then? If not, then any change to make things more in line with what you want will be performed by a third party (yourself or someone else), which makes it homebrew and thus, not core 5e.

And that's great! Why should any of us wait on WotC, when there's so much creativity outside their walls?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's part of the problem: Hercules is half-God. Archilies has magic skin. Steve Rodgers has a magic serum, Peter Parker has magical spider powers. None of them are mundane people. The closest you get is someone like Hawkeye or Black Widow, who just feel like high level character and are still outclassed by Thor or Scarlett Witch.

But that's the problem: any sufficiently amazing high level martial ability is indistinguishable from low level magic. Even if your rogue can never fail a lockpick or stealth so good she's invisible, congratulations, you're as good as a third level wizard.

D&D adventurers should not be mundane people. Period, full stop. Black Widow and Hawkeye are about where a 5th level martial should be. Calling them high level is a joke. Thor is about where a fighter should be at 11th level.

 

[Maxperson]

SIDE NOTE:

I watched Dr. Strange this morning since I hadn't seen it in a long time, and watching all the fighting/martial arts they do, I don't think I would really qualify Dr. Strange as a wizard by any means...

What part of Sorcerer Supreme are you not getting.

 

[Yaarel]

How about?

A Wizard must choose a theme. (Relating to school, but more like a Cleric domain.)

The highest level spell slots accessible can only be used for spells that relate to the specific theme.

Only the lower level slots can be used for spells that are unrelated to the theme.



This way, the most powerful spells make the Wizard more thematically flavorful. The restriction in knowable spells at the highest level keep the Wizard somewhat more limited with regard to the challenges that level. Nevertheless, the high level Wizard still can cast other spells generally.