D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Maxperson]

I'd specifically try to do the opposite: make one useful in one way and the other useful in another. Between them they still wouldn't cover all the bases, and nor should they; ideally you'd need at least three more characters to even try to cover them all and even then there'd be holes.

Trying to make everyone useful in all ways was - kind of - 4e's mantra; and history shows how well that went in the long run.

Yeah. That's why for most skill checks in my game need you to be proficient to even get a roll(or auto know) the answer. Anyone can auto fail.

I don't believe that everyone should be able to roll for everything.

 

[Mort]

Yeah. That's why for most skill checks in my game need you to be proficient to even get a roll(or auto know) the answer. Anyone can auto fail.

I don't believe that everyone should be able to roll for everything.

Does the bard's Jack of all Trades count enough for proficiency?

I tend to allow it (mostly just to watch the bard spectacularly fail - the player is known for low rolls).

 

[Cruentus]

Then give some specifics. The only example you gave was fireball so that's what I responded to.

I just ran a game where the wizard was an Evoker. And when we played in the naturally occurring areas - dungeons, caves, outdoors, even in a castle, it didn't matter. He cast fireball as often as possible, used his Evoker ability to make all his friends immune to the damage, and threw them with impunity. He could place it to avoid destroying the wood and rope bridge, etc. Always worked. Always exactly where he needed it. Shrug.

When he didn't throw fireballs, it was Firebolt. And that was all he took. I mean, he used his ritual to throw up a Leomund's Hut, and other things to ignore worrying about resting, etc., so didn't have to worry about having it memorized. He used his Detect Magic ritual to do that. So, again, unless I continually ran some kind of clock (which gets boring every. single. adventure), or specifically built environments to counter him (which I did have some monsters resistant to fire), all he had to do was throw those around. The rest of the casters in the party filled in the gaps (Cleric, Twilight Cleric/Sorcerer, Rogue/Warlock, and Arcane Archer).

And the Arcane Archer was the weakest of them all (which that class is), and always went unconscious in most fights, without targeting him specifically.

 

[Cadence]

who carries an anvil?

If nothing else, the bard might enjoy singing the anvil song once.

 

[Maxperson]

Does the bard's Jack of all Trades count enough for proficiency?

Yes. That's the Bard's schtick and I'm not going to take that away. Deep, deep knowledge might involve a harder DC for a bard, though. They know a bit about everything, but are not experts at stuff they are unproficient with.

 

[Mort]

Yes. That's the Bard's schtick and I'm not going to take that away. Deep, deep knowledge might involve a harder DC for a bard, though. They know a bit about everything, but are not experts at stuff they are unproficient with.

While I would reserve the right to do that (higher DC), I haven't been. The groups bard is a sword bard and the stuff where Jack of all Trades comes up are usually knowledge skills etc., and his INT isn't great. Since he's only getting half proficiency, it just seems a higher DC would be kicking him while he's down!

 

[Oofta]

I just ran a game where the wizard was an Evoker. And when we played in the naturally occurring areas - dungeons, caves, outdoors, even in a castle, it didn't matter. He cast fireball as often as possible, used his Evoker ability to make all his friends immune to the damage, and threw them with impunity. He could place it to avoid destroying the wood and rope bridge, etc. Always worked. Always exactly where he needed it. Shrug.

When he didn't throw fireballs, it was Firebolt. And that was all he took. I mean, he used his ritual to throw up a Leomund's Hut, and other things to ignore worrying about resting, etc., so didn't have to worry about having it memorized. He used his Detect Magic ritual to do that. So, again, unless I continually ran some kind of clock (which gets boring every. single. adventure), or specifically built environments to counter him (which I did have some monsters resistant to fire), all he had to do was throw those around. The rest of the casters in the party filled in the gaps (Cleric, Twilight Cleric/Sorcerer, Rogue/Warlock, and Arcane Archer).

And the Arcane Archer was the weakest of them all (which that class is), and always went unconscious in most fights, without targeting him specifically.

That's why I mix things up. Throw in monsters that are immune to fire now and then. Have fights start in the forest or in town. Change the NPC's spells so they have counterspell. Also remember that most castles have quite a bit of flammable materials - many castles had sections separated by wooden walls or two floors instead of one with very tall ceilings. Tapestries everywhere, furniture and so on. Take a look at this room

Table, chairs, draperies, wooden ceiling which is either decorative or there's a second floor above, tapestries on the far wall. Don't forget that castles were people's homes, it wasn't just stone walls everywhere.

Personally I use the alternate rest rules, a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more. It really helps balance things out, although I do have a house rule that any spell that lasts for half an hour or more gets their duration multiplied by 5. I know other people just say that they don't allow long rests unless you're someplace safe. I want the wizard to be able to cast fireballs if they want, but a one trick pony is going to run into issues in my campaign now and then.

 

[Helldritch]

Yes. That's the Bard's schtick and I'm not going to take that away. Deep, deep knowledge might involve a harder DC for a bard, though. They know a bit about everything, but are not experts at stuff they are unproficient with.

While I would reserve the right to do that (higher DC), I haven't been. The groups bard is a sword bard and the stuff where Jack of all Trades comes up are usually knowledge skills etc., and his INT isn't great. Since he's only getting half proficiency, it just seems a higher DC would be kicking him while he's down!

Both approaches are valid. Always give a character a chance to shine. I prefer the fixed DC approach but I always decide which knowledge is common (10), rare (15), obscure (20), legendary (25) or impossible (30) far in advance.

 

[Maxperson]

Both approaches are valid. Always give a character a chance to shine. I prefer the fixed DC approach but I always decide which knowledge is common (10), rare (15), obscure (20), legendary (25) or impossible (30) far in advance.

I would probably use his approach if the bard was the only member of the party with knowledge skills. In addition to the bard, we have a sorcerer, wizard and warlock, though, so knowledge abounds and they are experts in the field. The way I do it, they get to shine in their areas of expertise and he gets everything else.

 

[FrogReaver]

I fully acknowledge Fighters tend to be weaker than casters - and yet i often find I have much more fun with fighters than casters. Not having to remember 10+ different 'buttons' and their intracacies freed up alot of mental capacity for clever solutions.

An anecdote - I used to play Call of Duty World at War. My weapon of choice was a shotgun with a bayonet that I 99.99% of the time used to stab people. A guy climbed up a ladder and i tried to stab him 3 times before my friend reminded me that I actually could shoot him. But the reason was that in order to stab people with the bayonet (unlike some other versions of the game) you had to adopt a totally different playstyle. You had to be crafty, lure people to you, find ways to hide and jump out on them or sneak up behind them. You had to know when to actively avoid fights and run away or hide. I remember one time I was running down a long open alley and an ally got radar about the time i was in the middle and 3 enemies were about to round the corner and face me. I did the only thing I could think of trying with my bayonet shotgun. I laid on the ground and buried my head into it so much that I couldn't even see them and it worked. The first one ran by me. I jumped up at the middle one and stabbed him before the 3rd one shot me down. I heard a loud "what the hell" come from that guys mic. So much fun. I wouldn't win any tournaments playing that way, but I rarely finished bad in random matches and the playstyle was a heck of alot of fun.

So just maybe, Fighters don't actually need to be balanced with Wizards in terms of power. Maybe that's actually part of the fun.