D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[HammerMan]

I'd specifically try to do the opposite: make one useful in one way and the other useful in another. Between them they still wouldn't cover all the bases, and nor should they; ideally you'd need at least three more characters to even try to cover them all and even then there'd be holes.

escept you could do it pretty easy with a high level caster (druids and clerics are easiet but wizards not far behind with bards just on there heels)

Trying to make everyone useful in all ways was - kind of - 4e's mantra; and history shows how well that went in the long run.

it was the best edition and a vocal set of old guard got the best of it removed?

 

[Oofta]

escept you could do it pretty easy with a high level caster (druids and clerics are easiet but wizards not far behind with bards just on there heels)

it was the best edition and a vocal set of old guard got the best of it removed?

Right. The fact that they lost top spot in the TTRPG market had nothing to do with it.

 

[Oofta]

I’m hearing a lot of “has to” with respect to fighters, each of which has a steep opportunity cost. To do his job, he “has to” take Sentinel. He “needs” specific magical items to increase his speed, to fly, to detect invisible, to damage opponents that are resistant to non-magical damage (at least two, for melee and ranged), which he spends his limited attunement slots on. If he wants to contribute outside combat, he needs to spend feats. None of this is easy to respec on days when there are fewer combats.

The other classes also need to make choices. Yes, they have a baker's dozen or so ritual spells if they have them. It depends on the campaign how easy it is to find and add new spells. Can they just go down to Scrolls R Us and buy them (how much?), or are they mostly limited to the two per level that they get automatically?

They also have to decide what type of wizard. Evokers have the cool "my allies get out of jail damage free" card but not everyone takes an evoker for various reasons. Oh, and nobody ever casts counterspell on that wizard floating gently down or targets them (or casts dispel magic) when they're relying on a concentration buff. Meanwhile the wizard has apparently unlimited spell slots which is a nice trick not to mention that every wizard is Batman and has the right spell prepped for every encounter.

Wizards and fighters are different. If you have a 5 minute work day and don't ever try to balance out encounters then it's going to be an issue. It hasn't been in games I've played in. Sometimes the wizard shines, as they should. Sometimes the bad guys focus fire on the wizard and they run and hide or ask the fighter to save them.

So yes. People need to make decisions about what to do with their PCs based on the style of the game. What else is new?

 

[HammerMan]

I fully acknowledge Fighters tend to be weaker than casters - and yet i often find I have much more fun with fighters than casters. Not having to remember 10+ different 'buttons' and their intracacies freed up alot of mental capacity for clever solutions.

also why sometimes warlocks are more fun or sorcerers (less buttons) but notice for spell casters we have a range of option more or less complex classes... but when you want to play a martial non caster concept you are limited to very basic or mostly basic options... no complex non casters in the game.

So just maybe, Fighters don't actually need to be balanced with Wizards in terms of power. Maybe that's actually part of the fun.

right up until someone says "Hey, can I play a non caster that is as complex or near to it?"

 

[HammerMan]

Using your own intelligence isn't allowed. You have to have reality-altering class features or you suck, apparently.

no but nothing stops EVERY character from having the same "Cool RP" or "Intelligent play" like I said when compairing shenagins in the OP some of the things the wizards did could be done by anyone any class... but EVERYTHING short of lucky multi crit done by fighter could be done by any class... and wizards get that AND ccool features.

 

[HammerMan]

Not to downplay what you want, but ultimately the amount of fun you have playing your character has more to do with choices and attitude than anything else.

so when Becky plays a champion fighter level 14 and Kurt plays a diviner wizard level 14 you don't see kurt has atleast 20 (if not 100) MORE choices he can make fun/unfun then becky?

I agree that improvements can be made, but I just don't see WotC making the ones you want, since this an old hand problem and they're chasing the new blood in large part. This is where 3rd party products (like Level Up) really shine.

my argument is that new blood would be MORE likely to want a class (call it what you will) that is as complex as a moderatly complex caster but with martial non caster fluff

 

[Ruin Explorer]

it was the best edition and a vocal set of old guard got the best of it removed?

PREACH IT BROTHER!

< is dragged away by nice but suspiciously well-built and heavily-armed men in ENworld uniforms and never seen again >

 

[HammerMan]

One of my characters has "a lot of candy" on her character sheet.

and so maybe we should not be saying "all martial character have 100's of pounds of gear"

I mean the rogue is also a non caster and not likely to be able to carry mucj

 

[HammerMan]

I don't want them to be supernatural unless that's the archetype I've chosen. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'm not going to do it again, ever.

and all I want is a class or set of options for BOTH of us... a simple and a complex

 

[Oofta]

and all I want is a class or set of options for BOTH of us... a simple and a complex

There are plenty of complex options out there. Don't want to play a champion fighter? Play something else. It's not like you're lacking options.