D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Umbran]

unless you and Oaf don't like them...

Mod Note:
Just an hour ago you got a warning about how you were discussing things. So now you're like, "Gee, now that the mods are watching me, let me directly insult someone based on their username! That'll be a wise choice indeed!" Really?

Your decisions in this thread aren't getting better, so you'll not be taking part in it further.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

One option that I haven't seen suggested (unless I've missed it, which in as large a discussion as this one is entirely possible!) is the use of optional/substitution abilities. People who dislike the new/upgraded/over the top abilities could ignore them and use the classes as per the PHB, while others who think the class needs the upgrades can use them.

 

[Cadence]

I think a mythic heroes version of the game could be fun, I'm just not sure there's much demand for it. But don't wait until higher tiers to give people mythic abilities, they start out that way. Maybe.

I never checked it out, but didn't PF1 have a supplement that did that? (I mostly stopped in PF at the lower levels).

 

[TwoSix]

So wait, given that 3rd party material DOES exist, does anybody know of a 3rd party fighter-equivalent that could fulfill people's requests for a more complex fighter class? Like, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel here, shouldn't we first check to see if someone's already done it? Throw up some examples, then discuss what does or doesn't work about them, and what you'd like to see be folded in to official products.

The LevelUp fighter is good. I like Laserllama's alternate fighter, if you want to stay a little closer to 5e standard but still have some more flexibility.

Alternate Fighter by laserllama

Alternate Fighter by laserllama - Created with GM Binder.

www.gmbinder.com

 

[Cadence]

One option that I haven't seen suggested (unless I've missed it, which in as large a discussion as this one is entirely possible!) is the use of optional/substitution abilities. People who dislike the new/upgraded/over the top abilities could ignore them and use the classes as per the PHB, while others who think the class needs the upgrades can use them.

I always like the archetypes in PF that let you substitute things in for a theme. They weren't tied to having to all have the same structure in terms of what levels you got abilities and sometimes they varied quite a bit from the base class.

 

[Remathilis]

I think this is a good start for many people.

I definitely think this is the way to go as far as helping give the fighter more options and versatility in their abilities without coming up with anything too different or crazy. Make them like Invocations/Infusions where you get a certain amount to choose from at different levels, with more fantastical and epic options unlockable at higher levels. You could even throw in a few more non combat options in the mix so the fighter can branch out into the other two pillars a bit easier.

This could also allow for more mundane and grounded maneuvers to exist along side more mythical and supernatural maneuvers and allow for the choice.

I think a lot.

sounds like a great start.

give OPTIONS to take some supernatual uses of the SDice and ones that are higher level (more like 3rd+ level spells)

heck just counter spell... expend a Sup Die and roll X vs Y to use your sword or shield to bat a spell effect away.

One of the biggest regrets I think I have from the next playtest was moving superiority dice to a single subclass. I get they wanted the "roll to hit" champion fighter to be the training wheels class, but I think modern audiences can handle a fighter that got dice and maneuvers as core.

My idea would be to keep the core pool of maneuvers fairly mundane and leave the gonzo stuff to subclasses, but I'd still allow some heroic options in there as well (add superiority dice to the number of feet jumped vs jump's auto 60 ft). I'd also greatly expand the pool of dice to allow for more uses.

For subs:
Champion: bone simple abilities that add to either damage dealing or survivability. Reroll dice, added crit, that kinda stuff.
Battlemaster: gains more support stuff that makes you break out the battle mat and minis. A controller in 4e parlance with the ability to share his superiority dice with allies.
Cavalier: defender type warrior with lots of social abilities on the side.
Tracker: your non-magical ranger with bonuses to stealth, ambushes, and wilderness skills.
Arcane archer: use your superiority dice to fire Hawkeye arrows, fire, ice, seeking, putty, etc.
Psi-warrior: use your dice to basically do the psionic stuff they currently do.
Rune knight: mimic supernatural abilities like growing larger, powering weapons with elemental energy and teleporting around the room. A bit if the 4e sword mage.
Eldritch knight: add a small pool of wizard spells to your maneuvers.

If samurai somehow makes it over, he becomes the master of using morale rules and making speedy attacks.

 

[DND_Reborn]

One of the biggest regrets I think I have from the next playtest was moving superiority dice to a single subclass. I get they wanted the "roll to hit" champion fighter to be the training wheels class, but I think modern audiences can handle a fighter that got dice and maneuvers as core.

Instead of superiority dice, I think this sort of stuff would be a good use for general hit dice, so they do something beside just "healing".

Personally, I've always like the idea of HD as "inner reserve", which can be used to heal on a short rest, etc. but also represents that "extra effort" you put forth when you just have to do your best (or better even!).

 

[Cadence]

again an option like jump or haste or knock or mage armor that a warrior class could take would be so easy not break anything but still is pushed against. heaven forbidsomeone say frighten, charm, hold person, (yea still teir 1 spells)

I haven't played one, but my son and his friends love the Eldritch Knight. And it feels like there is some literary support for the fighter with a few spells (although I can't think of one off the top of my head besides Mouser).

It feels like there could be a lot of flavor options to power the abilities - qi, bloodline, grit, panache, rage, psi, devotion, ancestral link, spirit guardian, ritual for the war God, the force, destiny's blessing... where most people have at least one that appeals to them as a splash of flavor on their fighter

All the people? I got nothing. Maybe for those wanting mundane a subclass that guarantees inheriting magic items if they don't find them?

 

[Remathilis]

Instead of superiority dice, I think this sort of stuff would be a good use for general hit dice, so they do something beside just "healing".

Personally, I've always like the idea of HD as "inner reserve", which can be used to heal on a short rest, etc. but also represents that "extra effort" you put forth when you just have to do your best (or better even!).

I don't want to turn HD into action points, or have PCs want to save them during rests because they might need them for class function.

That said, a feat or two where you can use hd in a limited capacity for a new action (like using a HD to auto stabilize or sacrificing one to add Necrotic damage to an attack as blood magic) would be an interesting design space.

 

[Lyxen]

bull you have no more ability to guess what it was or wasnt then anyone else/

Went below PF... Nothing more to say.

and already changed race and monsters and has surveys out for classes and feats...

That is so extremely minor, so far, it is declared to be backwards compatible, so certainly not 6e, and changes are really small.

again I don't care what you lable it

And then you do seem to care very much since YOU labelled it 6e.

unless you and Oaf don't like them...

Actually, I like suggestions based on any edition, and those from 4e are actually often good, there were a number of good things there. But it has NOTHING to do with the fact that the edition was a fiasco, which is a simple absolute truth.

all of the numbers we have are half baked yet you are sure you know the truth...

Just look at the stats and the dates that you yourself provided.

the intent was they wanted more... if you have 70 and someone else has 35 and everyone else is spliting the remaining 5 but you think you can claim 80 with the someone else have ing 15 and still the 5 remaining split that doesn't mean 70 is failing or unpopular

You are inventing numbers. This only happens in your imagination.

what... what are you talking about... even if you take the best for pathfinder they hit 51% to wotc 44% (again 5% other) and wotc had LOTS of options... they went with 5e and a huge playtest that kept some but not all of 4e... so I don't see where you are coming from

Simply for the fact that D&D's supremacy was never contested except during 4e, where it fell down. How hard is this to understand. And I don't have the figures year per year, however, today, for example the Roll20 stats show D&D alone at more than 50% and the best second is not even pathfinder, it's CoC at 11%...

I didin't start this other basing 4e to try to avoid the discussion did

You are getting exactly what you asked for trying to prove, despite all numbers showing the contrary, that 4e was popular. Drop it, it was not.

However, please continue providing great ideas, from 4e or elsewhere, ideas are good whatever the source.