Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Cadence]

I'm not sure if you aren't getting my point, or we just disagree.

But if you are familiar with the racist tropes the West often uses towards Asian cultures, focusing on the physical beauty, femininity, of both Asian males and females is a real problem. The inclusion of Comeliness in OA inadvertently plays right into that, and is therefore problematic and hurtful. Unintentionally so.

Had Zeb Cook, back in the day, been more aware of these cultural issues, he would have likely decided NOT to include Comeliness in OA, and saved it for a later book.

The smart student and wise older person are also stereotypes of Asian Americans. If the panelists had been coming to OA from a game that lacked Int or Wis, and critiqued the inclusion of those in a game about East Asia centered on physical combat, would you feel the same way about the criticism?

[Apologies if you answered a similar question from someone else earlier and I missed it. And thank you for all of your posts in this and similar threads].

 

[Bill Zebub]

Deleted. Too political and off topic.

Censorship!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

By the way, I don't deny there's a such thing as chilling effect. I've swung way around over the last few decades on my views about a lot of these issues, but one thing I haven't bought into is the taboo against "cultural appropriation" and I think when activists attack an author for writing about an experience which isn't their own...not just for getting it wrong, but for daring to even do so...it dissuades other authors (which is the goal) and stifles creativity.

But just like I think the anti-cultural-appropriation point of view is taking things to an extreme, I also don't think things should be taken to the extreme the other way, i.e. "no content should ever be discontinued for any reason because of the chilling effect"....which feels like the argument being presented here.

Cultural Appropriation as a concept has always raised my hackles a bit. I DO agree with the idea (reality I guess we should say) that a cultural heritage can be EXPLOITED. So, if I, some white American guy possessed of a whole fortune, which one could argue is partly built on the backs of depriving indigenous people of their heritage, and then I use that fortune to create a business selling goods who's design trades on their traditional designs, and thus depriving them of income, that is utterly exploitation, pure and simple. Heck, I guess it would only get worse if I actually paid them peanuts to do the designing and making of the goods! And this, to a wide variety of degrees, DOES happen.

OTOH if I created some music that sounded a lot like a genre traditional to some ethnic group/culture that also incorporated elements from other places, and its simply out there as another possible form of music for people to enjoy, am I guilty of something? OK, there are still some possible pitfalls, treading on some sacred tradition or something, but I don't think its probably exploitative, and I don't think there's anyone who can which people do and don't have the right to do that. This sort of interpretation of cultural appropriation generally strikes me as being poorly considered, at best.

I remember just being totally dumbfounded when I heard some science fiction novel being called an appropriation because it was written in a Magical Realist style (this was maybe 20 years ago before this become something of a trend or fad). Like, what? Who is it that 'owns' this style of writing? I actually just walked out on the person who was expounding this particular notion, it was just the height of absurdity.

 

[MGibster]

I'm not sure if you aren't getting my point, or we just disagree.

I get it. But we disagree. From my perspective, their reaction to comeliness is based on the idea that it was added it OA because it was OA and not to D&D in general. I get that their initial reaction is genuine. But if they continue to have that reaction after learning a little history behind it, I'm not going to be overly concerned about it. I don't consider it reasonable. It's like hearing people complain about the word picnic because they erroneously believe the word as racist origins. If they continue having that reaction despite learning that the racist connection is false, I just don't care if they continue having a negative reaction to the word.

 

[gamerprinter]

I have this other weird take from Japanese culture, that most wouldn't notice, I'd think. When you think of feudal Japan even with it's brutality, the fact that it was a police state across the whole empire - we think of Japanese as refined and cultured, if very alien to our own European examples. However, I see almost a refined and cultured allusion to Native American culture. Here me out. Japanese personal names, at least the old classical styles of names in old Japan are plants, flowers, forces of nature, ideals - they almost sound native. My Japanese grandfather, whom I never met - passed long before I was born. And noting the Japanese put the last name (family name) first, and personal following - in order of precedence. Shimizu Yukio was his name. Shimizu means "purest water" and Yukio means "snow" with the male identifier (Yukiko would be the feminine). Snow of the Purest Water sounds like a Native American name, to me. Shinto, their older religion, while ancient and refined is very much worship of kami, in the form of natural beings and natural places - places of rare beauty like at hot spring, a waterfall, a lush pond, a curious rock formation at the edge of the sea; almost animal spirits. That's where the shrines are located. So while the Japanese were technologically, mathematically advanced enough to easily adapt to more modern outside cultures with - almost equivalent to Europe, in a completely different way. Yet, at the same time there's a deeper Native American quality about them. I don't know, maybe it's just me - but that seems possible.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Cultural Appropriation as a concept has always raised my hackles a bit. I DO agree with the idea (reality I guess we should say) that a cultural heritage can be EXPLOITED. So, if I, some white American guy possessed of a whole fortune, which one could argue is partly built on the backs of depriving indigenous people of their heritage, and then I use that fortune to create a business selling goods who's design trades on their traditional designs, and thus depriving them of income, that is utterly exploitation, pure and simple. Heck, I guess it would only get worse if I actually paid them peanuts to do the designing and making of the goods! And this, to a wide variety of degrees, DOES happen.

OTOH if I created some music that sounded a lot like a genre traditional to some ethnic group/culture that also incorporated elements from other places, and its simply out there as another possible form of music for people to enjoy, am I guilty of something? OK, there are still some possible pitfalls, treading on some sacred tradition or something, but I don't think its probably exploitative, and I don't think there's anyone who can which people do and don't have the right to do that. This sort of interpretation of cultural appropriation generally strikes me as being poorly considered, at best.

I remember just being totally dumbfounded when I heard some science fiction novel being called an appropriation because it was written in a Magical Realist style (this was maybe 20 years ago before this become something of a trend or fad). Like, what? Who is it that 'owns' this style of writing? I actually just walked out on the person who was expounding this particular notion, it was just the height of absurdity.

Yeah, I rather agree. I feel that at least some forms of worrying about cultural appropriation might cause more harm than good. It also gives "western culture" a weird monopoly, as it effectively free for everyone to use without fear of such complaints.

 

[Dire Bare]

The smart student and wise older person are also stereotypes of Asian Americans. If the panelists had been coming to OA from a game that lacked Int or Wis, and critiqued the inclusion of those in a game about East Asia centered on physical combat, would you feel the same way about the criticism?

[Apologies if you answered a similar question from someone else earlier and I missed it. And thank you for all of your posts in this and similar threads].

Oh good lord. The "smart student" and "wise elder" are hardly stereotypes unique to Asian cultures. But let's say they were . . . .

Most of the panelists are D&D players, and even D&D creators. They aren't grognards, they weren't around when OA was first introduced in the 80s, but most of them are familiar with D&D. The panelists who aren't (yet) D&D players often hold back their criticism until others on the panel chime in, or the do re-evaluate during the discussion.

The panelists are aware that . . . .

Core D&D has the six attributes including Int and Wis, as does Oriental Adventures. The attributes apply to all D&D characters, regardless of book or cultural influence. You can also describe any character within the range of abilities.

Core D&D does not have Comeliness or an honor system, which Oriental Adventures does.

If both Comeliness and honor had been presented in the core books and applied to the entire game, that actually would be a different situation. But that's not the case. It doesn't matter than Comeliness first appeared in Unearthed Arcana . . . what, months? . . . before Oriental Adventures. It's not part of the core game.

By Pelor's beard, Comeliness all on it's own is such a toxic and problematic addition to D&D even before the orientalism issues . . . . I really don't get the pushback from folks on this.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I get it. But we disagree. From my perspective, their reaction to comeliness is based on the idea that it was added it OA because it was OA and not to D&D in general. I get that their initial reaction is genuine. But if they continue to have that reaction after learning a little history behind it, I'm not going to be overly concerned about it. I don't consider it reasonable. It's like hearing people complain about the word picnic because they erroneously believe the word as racist origins. If they continue having that reaction despite learning that the racist connection is false, I just don't care if they continue having a negative reaction to the word.

I'm not sure what you mean by continue to have that reaction. I mean, we don't know what Daniel Kwan, et al, think about it right now today. If they were to now say "we still find it problematic because Comeliness as an ability score feeds a trope of 'beautiful exotic Asian women' I would definitely agree. While this criticism is definitely a bit different from "it was only included to cater to this notion" it is still substantively the same idea, Comeliness is a bad idea in this book. It may well be a bad idea PERIOD, but they were after all not talking about other books.

 

[MGibster]

I'm not sure what you mean by continue to have that reaction. I mean, we don't know what Daniel Kwan, et al, think about it right now today. If they were to now say "we still find it problematic because Comeliness as an ability score feeds a trope of 'beautiful exotic Asian women' I would definitely agree. While this criticism is definitely a bit different from "it was only included to cater to this notion" it is still substantively the same idea, Comeliness is a bad idea in this book. It may well be a bad idea PERIOD, but they were after all not talking about other books.

This is the problem with doing hot takes or reaction videos. I'm not going to hold it against them as it doesn't invalidate the main body of their complaints. It's not like we're dealing with a house of cards here.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This is the problem with doing hot takes or reaction videos. I'm not going to hold it against them as it doesn't invalidate the main body of their complaints. It's not like we're dealing with a house of cards here.

I don't either. But I do hold the continued pushback on simple factual issues against people.

I don't expect people to get or know everything; we all make mistakes. But it's the people who try to browbeat others into accepting that an obvious mistake isn't one that I get concerned about.