Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Mordhau]

Was 'Oriental' considered racist when the book was written?

 

[Cadence]

This is really a whole other topic I think (quite a few of those in this thread). But I think with cancel culture, it also doesn't have to be conclusive to be a canceling. Most people are not going to be completely eradicated from an industry, social media space or a fandom. But they will be ostracized, have their reputation damaged, be lied about, their reach reduced, have their offenses exaggerated, be psychologically impacted, and potentially have their professional life in other industries impacted. Most game designers are not doing this full time, so they can likely weather a cancelation attempt unless they get removed from a major platform. But once your name has been dragged through the mud by a cancelation attempt, that is the sort of thing people search for when they hire people.

So, OA may or may not be problematic. But complaining about things like it is?

 

[Bill Zebub]

The poverty level for blacks in the U.S. in 2019 was 21.2%. The poverty levels for whites in Harlan KY was 30.7%. Is being white from Harlan KY worse than being black in the U.S. When it comes to poverty the statistics suggest yes.


Statistically being black in the U.S. makes you less likely to be in poverty than if you are white and from Harlan KY.

I just...I....I gotta admit you have left me dumbfounded with this one. I literally do not know how to even begin to respond.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The first word of the title is both racist and problematic. Are you going to deny even that?

I do think the title is an issue. I don't think it was as much of an issue when it was written (but I am going by memory in terms of when I realized that term was considered a pejorative). I don't think the intention was bad when the book came out, and that is different than if it came out today with the same title (where the publisher would clearly know how it might be received). Personally I think they should have changed the title for 3E for example.

You can either recognize the plethora of problematic components within it, or you can be wrong. Either way it doesn't matter.

But this is so narrow minded. You are basically saying "You either agree with me, or you are wrong", as if reasonable people can't all look at this book, and come away with different conclusions about its handling of asian culture.

 

[Gradine]

Was 'Oriental' considered racist when the book was written?

Again, this isn't really a thing. Anything that we would consider racist now was racist back whenever. It was never okay, and how deeply embedded that idea was in the historical period of time is irrelevant.

I think something being lost here is that no one is saying the people who wrote the book were or are racist. Intent isn't the point; impact is.

 

[MGibster]

The first word of the title is both racist and problematic. Are you going to deny even that?

It's a long thread, but someone did post an article about the divide between young and older Asians regarding the use of the word Oriental. The younger generation tends to favor Asian feeling Oriental is negative while many in the older generation prefer Oriental. I'm not Asian, and I'll admit that I would feel uncomfortable referring to someone as Oriental. Is the title problematic? Yes. Is it racist? I don't think so.

 

[Mordhau]

Again, this isn't really a thing. Anything that we would consider racist now was racist back whenever. It was never okay, and how deeply embedded that idea was in the historical period of time is irrelevant.

I think something being lost here is that no one is saying the people who wrote the book were or are racist. Intent isn't the point; impact is.

No. In many cases that is correct. But the meaning of words in context absolutely matters.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So, OA may or may not be problematic. But complaining about things like it is?

I have said throughout the thread, discussions and engagement are good and healthy. If someone wants to have a podcast talking about how they think OA is problematic, I am totally cool with that. Where I have an issue, is when people go after others on social media, ostracize them, or drag them through the mud, for having different opinions than they do on these topics. So not a problem if you want to discuss or debate this. But brigading someone because they think OA isn't a problem, I think is more of an issue. I am not saying that is happening, but I am just trying to explain the stance I was taking on cancel culture. There is a big difference between debating an idea, and demonizing a person.

 

[Gradine]

But this is so narrow minded. You are basically saying "You either agree with me, or you are wrong", as if reasonable people can't all look at this book, and come away with different conclusions about its handling of asian culture.

This isn't about reasonableness. It's about listening. There are probably a ton of things out there that I would never consider racist myself, and would be surprised to learn they are. But rather than continue to argue my uninformed opinion, I listen to the people who are affected by it, and that is how we learn.

 

[Cadence]

I have said throughout the thread, discussions and engagement are good and healthy. If someone wants to have a podcast talking about how they think OA is problematic, I am totally cool with that. Where I have an issue, is when people go after others on social media, ostracize them, or drag them through the mud, for having different opinions than they do on these topics. So not a problem if you want to discuss or debate this. But brigading someone because they think OA isn't a problem, I think is more of an issue. I am not saying that is happening, but I am just trying to explain the stance I was taking on cancel culture. There is a big difference between debating an idea, and demonizing a person.

Is there anything offensive enough for someone to deserve to be deplatformed ever?