D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Guest 7034872]

Well to be fair, ENWorld is hardly representative of all D&D players. In a more general poll, I think it's likely a majority would be fine with the fighter as is.

^^ This I agree with fully. We should not underestimate the number of casual players out there. I mean, until right around 2020, I used to be one.

 

[HammerMan]

Sure, and if they say in the class description that fighters perform superhuman feats through establishing a connection with the supernatural essence of the world, then great! Otherwise, reality is earth-like unless you indicate that it's not. You can't just assume.

and part of this thread... part of the last 100 threads is we want to fix the fighter... if you need that fix to come with a line of fluff no one is argueing against it...

again I even didn't mind the 'insult' idea that in the center of the universe is a giant lantern filled with the martial power source...

 

[HammerMan]

^^ This I agree with fully. We should not underestimate the number of casual players out there. I mean, until right around 2020, I used to be one.

right now I have 0 exposure to new and casual gamers...

pre covid at the gaming store I loved (that went out of business) I was running tutorial games for new players, and store campaigns that had casual players... yeah they are nothing like talking on enworld.

 

[Guest 7034872]

right now I have 0 exposure to new and casual gamers...

pre covid at the gaming store I loved (that went out of business) I was running tutorial games for new players, and store campaigns that had casual players... yeah they are nothing like talking on enworld.

Well, here's hoping you'll have a chance to do that again soon. I think even the most contented of hermits among us are sick of COVID by now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

oh the younger brother to 'fix it yourself' just buy something and hope it is good...

the same way I do not have the time energy or ability to homebrew, I do not have the time energy or money to buy 10 other homebrew ideas and find if 1 works (and maybe none do)... now the Enworld book level up sounds good, but mostly on here.

I don't find level up talked about on the facebook groups or tic tock or youtube the way I do here, so even though I know that it is MORE tested and MORE likely to be good then a random 3rd party... I still haven't done it yet (although I have been really thinking about it)

I would strongly suggest checking it out.

As far as what you want from WotC, I wouldn't hold your breath. They have no incentive to make the changes people seem to want. You're going to have to look outside the box.

 

[Fanaelialae]

^^ This I agree with fully. We should not underestimate the number of casual players out there. I mean, until right around 2020, I used to be one.

We shouldn't underestimate their numbers, but even if they were in the majority we wouldn't necessarily know why. At least here, on ENWorld, people often elaborate why they voted the way they did.

For example, imagine this. Fighter players have lots of fun in combat and then hop on their phones the rest of the time, enjoyably passing the time on Facebook, Twitter, or Tinder until the next encounter. There's every possibility they wouldn't even see that as a problem unless their DM gets on their case about it. So they rate the fighter highly.

Would that actually mean that the fighter is good as is and couldn't use improvement? Or would it mean something entirely different?

I honestly believe that ENWorlders are likely a better metric for this sort of thing than the average player who shows up at the table but doesn't necessarily spend much time (if any) thinking about the game between sessions.

 

[TheSword]

There are already several spell based solutions. We can look at spells like Zephyr Strike 1st level, Ranger only, no material or somantic components that lets the user move faster and avoid AOO.

Tashas give us the example of psychic spells that are themed around a particular approach.

I see no reason why there can’t be a selection of martial spells for the book of nine swords crowd. Have a fighter spell list if needed. Create a new subclass with slots if the Eldritch Knight really won’t do it.

Then stick a feat that can be taken multiple times to expand the impact of magic initiate. Second time it gives a second level spell and an additional 1st. So on so forth.

Problem solved.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would strongly suggest checking it out.

As far as what you want from WotC, I wouldn't hold your breath. They have no incentive to make the changes people seem to want. You're going to have to look outside the box.

On the other hand they, painfully slowly, are making some of the changes people want. When the fighter subclasses in the most recent major splatbook were the Psi Warrior and the Rune Knight, and the most recent other fighter subclass was the Echo Knight the idea that fighters should all be martial and without supranatural abilities has taken its proper place (unless someone casts Raise Dead on it). And the Rune Knight, Psi Warrior, Echo Knight, and as of Tasha's the Battlemaster all have significant out of combat ability.

Which just means tuning up the level 12+ mess of the fighter.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I never said D&D wasn't a bit silly. But if it wouldn't make sense for an action movie hero, I don't want it for my fighter. I fully accept that John McClane would have never survived any of the Die Hard movies. That half the things Dwayne Jonson does in movies are over the top. But there's a difference between that and being able to carve out chunks of a mountain or leap 60 feet at will.

Please pardon the double response, but wanted to circle back to something.

How in the heck are John McLane and Dwayne Johnson suitable exemplars for D&D martials? What is the most threatening thing either of them has fought in direct hand to hand combat in any movie? With McLame its just..people in every movie sometimes in 'large' groups of 2-4 at a time. With the Rock, near as I can tell from limited googling, the answer appears to be also people, though sometimes more and bigger people than McLame fights.

Compare that vs a high level martial. Put all three in a room and have the compare war stories.

The high level martial at the end of such a conversation..trying not to laugh:

"Yes yes, I too remember those early days of adventuring before things got hard. But keep at it and one day one of you might do something extraodinary".

(Edit: Seriously a high level martial can reasonably have been expected to have gone into a dragon's house, kicked its ass, taken its lunch money, and turned its pelt into a fashion accessory. I dont see how either of those jabronis are even in the same conversation.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

And apparently doesn't want steak on the menu at all because despite the insistance that they prefer chicken, are somehow threatened by someone sitting next to them enjoying their steak...

Can't we all just come together and agree on the obvious fact that steak and indeed all meat is chicken?