Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[pemerton]

I made some more actual play posts here.

In my group's session today, with multiple players who are experienced RPGers, we saw the bite of the inventory system - food, light, supplies. And the importance of help/aid. And also the beginner's luck quirk: everyone can pile in and help with beginner's luck, whereas helping a skill test requires some appropriate skill, wise or Nature.

I'm still not sure how the colour and the gameplay fit together. My impression is quite different from @clearstream's: I don't see it as a story now vehicle, because of the overwhelming demand it imposes for skilled play. And killing four bandits for a helmet, two candles and an indecipherable note (as happened in our session today) has a hint of Vance but otherwise is too close to a parody of 1st level Moldvay or AD&D play for me to deeply invest in the story. Though the flavour definitely infuses play, I'm so far seeing it as closer to background colour than the essence of things that it would be in (say) Burning Wheel.

 

[Fenris-77]

A desperate battle against Bandits is fine by me. I don't rate the treasure there unless that was the reason for the fight.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A desperate battle against Bandits is fine by me. I don't rate the treasure there unless that was the reason for the fight.

Sure, but I think what @pemerton is saying is that the entire flavor of the game is "scrabble in the dirt for scraps" in an environment that is overwhelmingly deadly and basically dooms you to slow (if not outright immediate) death at the first mistake. Its ALMOST like playing Paranoia, except instead of NO possibility of success, there is this very narrow path which is fraught with danger and requires managing a whole bunch of mechanical game levers to navigate. The overall 'ouvre' in that case is a kind of pathos.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible to present a bit different tone, but a desperate scrape with bandits over a couple of virtually worthless bits of equipment sure seems to evoke that. I'm assuming the treasure is something that the adventure Pemerton ran specifies. Maybe you could have adequate rewards for danger that generally produce a result worth the cost and here are there some 'healing potions' or something that would tend to keep the grind at bay. Now you'd probably have something closer to Moldvay, the doughty adventurers are in real danger, the grind could eat them up if they make a few mistakes and fail to calculate when to turn back, but overall things are not quite so grim. I suspect that would be getting away from the intended feel of the game a bit, but I don't know for sure.

I think a bit less harsh milieu might also encourage more of a story game approach in terms of the characters being able to articulate and achieve broader aims and really move the story forward in a direction of the player's choosing. I'm still trying to get a chance to play, so I am not totally sure just exactly how narrow the character's typical viable choices are at all times, but it feels to me like the standard is its pretty tight, like you might have some basic directional choices, but your supply and conditions, combined with the current framing, will almost entirely dictate what you can do next. So your choices are mostly in terms of "do we push on now, or turn back?" and such.

 

[pemerton]

A desperate battle against Bandits is fine by me. I don't rate the treasure there unless that was the reason for the fight.

It wasn't very desperate - the PCs escalated it from drive-off to kill, and killed the bandits in one mighty Attack round. It was a little comical.

Sure, but I think what @pemerton is saying is that the entire flavor of the game is "scrabble in the dirt for scraps" in an environment that is overwhelmingly deadly and basically dooms you to slow (if not outright immediate) death at the first mistake. Its ALMOST like playing Paranoia, except instead of NO possibility of success, there is this very narrow path which is fraught with danger and requires managing a whole bunch of mechanical game levers to navigate. The overall 'ouvre' in that case is a kind of pathos.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible to present a bit different tone, but a desperate scrape with bandits over a couple of virtually worthless bits of equipment sure seems to evoke that. I'm assuming the treasure is something that the adventure Pemerton ran specifies.

I inserted the bandit encounter because one of the players built a skald, and while preparing for the session I'd decided that if someone built a "talk-y" PC I would place a (potential) social encounter at the start of the dungeon. The loot was generated by rolling once on Loot Table 1 for the additional area, and once on Loot Table 2 for each 2 of the Might 2 bandits, so twice in total (4 bandits): I got gear (a helmet), more gear (2 candles) and some stuff (an indecipherable note which the dreamwalker was able to decipher).

The dealing with the bandits cost 3 turns plus two conditions (angry, and hungry and thirsty), and a PC's helmet was damaged in the fight, so it was kind-of a break-even scenario at best: some tests were clocked, a Fate point or two earned, and (in effect) some food swapped for some candles. So while the combat wasn't deadly, it wasn't what it would be in Burning Wheel. You've compared it to Paranoia; I think my comparison to Vance-ish grim fantasy comedy also holds up under analysis.

I'm not criticising the game in saying it's not "story now" - I'm just calling it how I see it, and especially how I see it in relation to Burning Wheel, which is a natural point of comparison.

Maybe you could have adequate rewards for danger that generally produce a result worth the cost and here are there some 'healing potions' or something that would tend to keep the grind at bay. Now you'd probably have something closer to Moldvay, the doughty adventurers are in real danger, the grind could eat them up if they make a few mistakes and fail to calculate when to turn back, but overall things are not quite so grim. I suspect that would be getting away from the intended feel of the game a bit, but I don't know for sure.

I think a bit less harsh milieu might also encourage more of a story game approach in terms of the characters being able to articulate and achieve broader aims and really move the story forward in a direction of the player's choosing. I'm still trying to get a chance to play, so I am not totally sure just exactly how narrow the character's typical viable choices are at all times, but it feels to me like the standard is its pretty tight, like you might have some basic directional choices, but your supply and conditions, combined with the current framing, will almost entirely dictate what you can do next. So your choices are mostly in terms of "do we push on now, or turn back?" and such.

Most of the decision-making I've seen in my three first sessions involves how to approach the situation - what skill to test, what gear to use, etc. Classic operational play, which is what a game with the title Torchbearer should be delivering!

But the very fact that the basic premise of play is a GM-designed dungeon that the players explore and try and "beat" via their PCs pushes against "story now" - though as I've said, of course the flavour the players bring in their PC creation will inform the details of the GM's situation and consequence narration.

 

[clearstream]

I made some more actual play posts here.

In my group's session today, with multiple players who are experienced RPGers, we saw the bite of the inventory system - food, light, supplies. And the importance of help/aid. And also the beginner's luck quirk: everyone can pile in and help with beginner's luck, whereas helping a skill test requires some appropriate skill, wise or Nature.

I'm still not sure how the colour and the gameplay fit together. My impression is quite different from @clearstream's: I don't see it as a story now vehicle, because of the overwhelming demand it imposes for skilled play. And killing four bandits for a helmet, two candles and an indecipherable note (as happened in our session today) has a hint of Vance but otherwise is too close to a parody of 1st level Moldvay or AD&D play for me to deeply invest in the story. Though the flavour definitely infuses play, I'm so far seeing it as closer to background colour than the essence of things that it would be in (say) Burning Wheel.

I found the "Player Cheat Sheet 2e" that a kind person posted on the Burning Wheel Torchbearer forum helpful. It lays out important reminders that for me at least reduced the cognitive load of forming an effective plan. Have your characters levelled as yet?

 

[Fenris-77]

I found the "Player Cheat Sheet 2e" that a kind person posted on the Burning Wheel Torchbearer forum helpful. It lays out important reminders that for me at least reduced the cognitive load of forming an effective plan. Have your characters levelled as yet?

The cheat sheet are good yeah. I also snipped and the printed out the flowcharts from the end of the Dungeoneer's Book for easy reference.

 

[pemerton]

Have your characters levelled as yet?

I've run three first sessions. So no one has spent any Fate or Persona. And no one has earned 3 of both yet. So no levelling.

The cheat sheet are good yeah. I also snipped and the printed out the flowcharts from the end of the Dungeoneer's Book for easy reference.

Are you GMing? Playing?

 

[Fenris-77]

I've run three first sessions. So no one has spent any Fate or Persona. And no one has earned 3 of both yet. So no levelling.

Are you GMing? Playing?

Playing. We just finished characters and the actual adventure starts Tuesday.

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, that went badly. My outcast failed every single roll all session except one combat roll. Got injured by skeletons, failed to recover (on a huge pile of rolled dice), and then thanks to a failed heal check I had to grit my teeth. Wheeee!

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Well, that went badly. My outcast failed every single roll all session except one combat roll. Got injured by skeletons, failed to recover (on a huge pile of rolled dice), and then thanks to a failed heal check I had to grit my teeth. Wheeee!

Sounds like Torchbearer all right!