Seastars with high AC - 5e idea?

[Casimir Liber]

Yes - should be restrained

 

[Cleon]

Yes - should be restrained

Okay, so shall we adapt the Giant Octopus version?

Incidentally, the damage and escape DC appear to use a +1 Strength bonus instead of the +2 it should have from STR 14.

How about:

Arm. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack another target.​

For the Multiattack, I was thinking the following approach might work:

Multiattack. The giant ophiuroid can make up to three attacks: it can make one attack with its bite against a target it is grappling, the remaining attacks must be arm attacks. If the ophiuroid has fewer than three arms because of its Shed Arms ability, the maximum number of arm attacks it can make equals its current number of arms.​

I'm not sure about what damage type the Bite should have. Are an ophiuroid's fivefold jaws for cutting or crushing their food? Piercing doesn't feel right, they're not all "stabby" like a smilodon's canines after all.

Here we go: Dental Insights Into Ophiuroids: Feeding Mechanisms. It appears they can have grinding teeth or both grinding and carnassial (cutting) teeth, depending on what food the Brittle Star eats.

That indicates our monster could do bludgeoning damage (crushing its food) and/or slashing damage (cutting its food).

So do we pick one or the other or try to use both?

Now, in 3E an attack can do multiple types of damage (i.e. "bludgeoning and slashing") but I'm not sure if that's still a thing in 5E. I guess we could do both (#d#+# bludgeoning damage plus #d#+# slashing damage) or have it do one or the other (#d#+# bludgeoning damage or #d#+# slashing damage).

Any preferences?

 

[Cleon]

Remembered a couple of points I meant to bring up.

Firstly, do you want it to be able to attack one target with three arms as per the previous proposal:

Multiattack #1. The giant ophiuroid can make up to three attacks: it can make one attack with its bite against a target it is grappling, the remaining attacks must be arm attacks. If the ophiuroid has fewer than three arms because of its Shed Arms ability, the maximum number of arm attacks it can make equals its current number of arms.​

Or do we want to limit it to one arm per target, i.e.:

Multiattack #2. The giant ophiuroid can make up to three attacks: it can make one attack with its bite against an target it is grappling, the remaining attacks must be arm attacks. A giant ophiuroid can't attack an target with more than one arm; multiple arm attacks must target different opponents. If the ophiuroid has fewer than three arms because of its Shed Arms ability, the maximum number of arm attacks it can make equals its current number of arms.​

Secondly, the Brittle Star's arms should pull the target towards the creature's mouth. At the moment, if an arm holds a victim 10 or 15 feet away there's no way for it to bite them unless the Ophiuroid moves itself closer.

So we need an addendum. How about:

Arm #2. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack a different target. If the arm hits a target that it is already grappling, the target must succeed at a DC 12 Strength check or be pulled within reach of the ophiuroid's bite attack, or into the nearest empty space if that isn't possible.​

Do those tweaks suit you?

 

[Cleon]

Also, we may need to tweak the Arm and Bite damage a bit to keep them in line with Challenge 1, depending on what Arm to Bite damage ratios we end up using.

Either that or we increase it to CR 2 and have it do more damage! However, I currently prefer CR 1 for this critter.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Yeah, CR 1 would be good - I went with Multiattack #1 - did think that if two tentacles hit then DC save can be made at Disadvantage?

Also slashing damage for mouth - I like the idea of both but not sure 5e mechanics can accommodate it...

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, CR 1 would be good - I went with Multiattack #1 - did think that if two tentacles hit then DC save can be made at Disadvantage?

What DC save?

Do you mean the to avoid being grabbed by the Arms? If the target is hit by two tentacles it'll need to roll twice to avoid being grabbed (once by each arm) and is grappled and restrained if it fails either save, which is effectively the same as disadvantage.

Hmm, being restrained by the arms gives the target disadvantage on Dexterity based saving throws; doesn't that already include Dexterity (Acrobatics) escape checks? We could add disadvantage on Strength saving throws if it's held by multiple arms to cover Strength (Acrobatic) checks.

So something like this:

Arm #3. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack a different target. If the arm hits a target that is already grappled, the target must succeed at a DC 12 Strength check or be pulled within reach of the ophiuroid's bite attack, or into the nearest empty space if that isn't possible.

A creature grappled by two or more arms has disadvantage on Strength saving throws.​

Although it might be better to be more explicit:

Arm #4. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack a different target. If the arm hits a target that is already grappled, the target must succeed at a DC 12 Strength check or be pulled within reach of the giant ophiuroid's bite attack, or into the nearest empty space if that isn't possible.

A creature grappled by two or more arms has disadvantage on all rolls against the ophiuroid's arm attacks.​

However, I would rather limit the beast to grappling a target with one arm, even if it can wack them with multiple limbs.

If a Gargantuan kraken can't grapple an ordinary target with more than one limb I don't see why a Large ophiuroid would be able to.

Arm #5. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack a different target. If the arm hits a target that is already grappled, the target must succeed at a DC 12 Strength check or be pulled within reach of the giant ophiuroid's bite attack, or into the nearest empty space if that isn't possible.

The ophiuroid has five arms (unless it lost some to a Shed Arms reaction), each of which can grapple one target.​

Oh, and ophiuroid limbs are called ARMS not tentacles. It's not a squid!

 

[Cleon]

Also slashing damage for mouth - I like the idea of both but not sure 5e mechanics can accommodate it...

Sure it can accommodate it! Just write an attack that does both types of damage.

If an attack can do, say, piercing damage plus fire damage I see no mechanical reason one can't do bludgeoning damage plus slashing damage.

 

[Cleon]

Incidentally, I've just spend way more time than I expected trying to figure out typical proportions of Brittle Stars and on average they do appear to have lower arm-to-disc ratios than my original model (3 foot disc, 20 foot arms).

I'd likely tweak that to shorter arms and wider discs when we get to the Description.

However, the length of the arms is nothing compared to trying to find information on how much they weigh! Most of the info I found online is either unsubstantiated by proper references, obviously wildly inaccurate, or concealed behind a paywall.

I think that a Giant Brittle Star could scale to 1,500 to 3,000 pounds with a bigger disc and stubbier arms and still be scaled to the real world animals but I'm note sure.

It may be prudent to just not mention a weight. Most published 5E monsters don't bother specifying a weight.

I'm inclined to amend the note in the Giant Brittle Star (Ophiuroid) Description from:

 An average giant brittle star has a body disc 3 feet across, arms 20 feet long and weighs about 1,500 pounds. Typical size ranges are disc diameter 32 to 48 inches, arm length 18 to 25 feet and weight 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Bigger specimens are possible but rare; smaller giant brittle stars are common but rarely attack humanoids.

to:

 A typical giant brittle star has a body disc 4 to 5 feet across and arms 15 to 20 feet long. Bigger specimens are possible but rare; smaller giant brittle stars are common but rarely attack humanoids.​

 

[Casimir Liber]

Sorry meant disadvantage on being dragged to the mouth....digesting now

 

[Cleon]

Sorry meant disadvantage on being dragged to the mouth....

Seems a bit superfluous. If it's hit by two arms it needs to make two rolls to avoid dragging in the current draft and if either of those fail it's within bite range. Adding disadvantage to the second check just makes it three rolls.

I'd rather there be a decent possibility of it taking a few arm hits to drag a screaming* victim into the jaws. More dramatic that way.

*Or otherwise exclaiming, according to the victim's individual taste ("Dash it, being devoured by this starfish is a trifle inconvenient!").

That said, I now think the DC of the Strength check should match the DC 14 of the escape check.

Oh, and I just realized it should be a Shed Arm reaction not Shed Arms as it only loses them one at a time!

Thinking it over, I definitely like disadvantage on Strength (Athletics) escape checks and realised there's an easier way to express it than Arm #4.

Arm #5a. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it is grappled (escape DC 14; with disadvantage on escape checks). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the ophiuroid can't use that arm to attack a different target. If the arm hits a target that is already grappled, the target must succeed at a DC 14 Strength check or be pulled within reach of the ophiuroid's bite attack, or into the nearest empty space if that isn't possible.​

​

The giant ophiuroid has five arms (unless it lost some to a Shed Arm reaction), each of which can grapple one target.​

Does that look OK to you?

digesting now

No that's that happens when a giant sea star drags its victim to its mouth. Giant brittle stars chew them up before digesting!

Speaking of which, I was thinking the bite damage would be something like 4 (1d4 + 2) bludgeoning plus 4 (1d4 + 2) slashing.

Let's see, the max damage output of the Giant Brittle Star is therefore two arms (2d6 + 4 bludgeoning) plus bite (2d4 + 4 bludgeoning and slashing) for 20 in total.

That seems a trifle high. While a Brown Bear does 19.5 damage, it has much weaker defenses (AC 11, HP 34) and doesn't restrain its victims (so no advantage on the attack).

I would either lower the arm damage to 1d4 + 2 as well, and/or also limit it to one arm attack per target as in Multiattack #2.

Lower arm damage averages to 18 total damage (4d4 + 8), similar to a bear.

If it can only use one bite and one arm against a given target, that target takes either 14½ (1d6 + 2d4 + 6) or 13½ (3d4 + 6) damage on average (depending on whether we use d4 or d6 for the arms).

Hmm, that's still higher than the 10 (2d6 + 3) of a Giant Octopus Tentacles attack.

We could fix that by making it one attack per target rather than just one arm attack, so it can either bite or arm a target but not both. Then the max damage to an individual target is the bite's 2d4 + 4.

Multiattack #3. The giant ophiuroid can make up to three attacks against different targets: it can make one attack with its bite against an target it is grappling, the remaining attacks must be arm attacks. If the ophiuroid has fewer than three arms because of its Shed Arm ability, the maximum number of arm attacks it can make equals its current number of arms.​

Still think we should consider reducing the arm damage to 1d4 + 2 if the beastie is meant to be Challenge 1, although 1d6 + 2 might be doable.

What does the "Challenge Calculator" say?