D&D 5E Player feedback: Deserved Easy Win or a Satisfying Win?

[Krachek]

It cost nothing to the DM the adapt his narrative to include the effects of the preparation of the PC. And it is the key to give player the feeling that their work has concrete effects.
Without the DM narrative, the preparation could seem useless, wherever the fight is too easy or too hard.

 

[Deekin]

We don't spend three sessions in Shadowrun planning to have a fair fight is all I'm saying.

True. My players still, 10 years on, talk about the Run where everything went right.

Let thr Player's have the easy win, but show off why their prep work made it easy.

 

[Mort]

I'll join the chorus and say, as a player, I would MUCH rather have the earned and hopefully not difficult victory.

D&D combat is swingy enough that they still might not be a cakewalk - but if they can see how it otherwise would have been a slaughter (of them) - that itself is a GREAT payoff.

 

[Quickleaf]

The current big bad that they are dealing with in my Masks of the Imperium campaign is a elf-hating duke who has made a deal with an Oinoloth in order to gain the knowledge of a genocide ritual, and for protection again his (PC) nephew who has killed him once before (in backstory).

(Note that the people of the dukedom are not evil - guards are most likely doing their job. Oh, and the party's patron is the Child-Empress currently without power because of a regent was imposed by the Council of Nobles, who has warned them that "Regicide is not a habit we wish to encourage my citizens to partake in", so killing the Duke without exposing the Oinoloth to the people won't work.)

The party has spent sessions setting everything up right. The found out about the Oinoloth (which was oriiginally planned ot be a surprise), researched it's powers, figured out how to expel it from the duke's body, were brilliant in putting that together with the fact that he would be at the dawn blessing of a Opympiad-expy at the hallowed shrine invoking th gods, and that they have a very good bard with them who can lead the spectators in a chant of exorcism for force the Oinoloth out of the body and to materialize.

They've gotten the loan of some items that will be particularly useful. They approached the head of the local clergy and let them know something is up, even if they were worried work would get back so they didn't tell them exactly. They've spread rumors among the people. They even found out that one powerful supposed ally of the duke will not help defend him.

Basically, they will be going into a fight that would have been a multi-stage boss battle with lots of surprises instead fully rested, prepped, with consumable magic up, knowing the foe and what they can do. And as the first fight of the day where you know it's a big one, PCs can punch well above their weight class.

So I expect this to turn into a meaningful but fairly pre-determined fight, that the PCs will have the upper hand.

And I worry that after putting sessions into lining all of that up, the players will feel cheated if they were able to turn it in a fight without a lot of tension. I could make it harder so that it feels like they worked to turn it from nigh-impossible to possible, but that's ignoring player actions in a way I don't like.

So, if you were a player and had invested several sessions in getting allies, information, and such about a big bad, and using that turned the conclusion of the arc into a fairly short fight because you were Batman-level prepared, would you feel great about it or would you feel like you wasted time and shouldn't have put in that much research and prep?

How do you do a climax without combat?

That's hyperbole, but that's the paradigm shift for thinking about your climactic session. Because you still want good pacing with a suitable sense of climax. With all of their prep, the players are going to win, they should win, and they should feel like big dang heroes. So this climax is not about a threat to their lives... Maybe it's no longer about confronting the elf-hating fiend-possessed duke...

So then what is the dramatic question? What is the conflict now? What is at threat?

For example, maybe it's a contingency plan the wicked duke has – kill me and my genocidal plan for the elves goes into effect, or kill me and my soldiers posted outside that temple I know helped you behead every priest so there's none left to cast resurrection. In that case the conflict is "how much is the satisfaction of vengeance/righteousness worth to us? how much would we sacrifice to see our nemesis dead?"

Or maybe there's a shocking reveal the oinoloth has about one of the PCs that casts doubt or reframes past events in the campaign or their character backstory. Maybe the player really wants to know what the oinoloth knows about their PCs' true past, so the conflict is "how badly do I need to know? am I willing to fake the oinoloth's death and betray my companions' trust to learn the truth?"

Maybe neither of those. But that's the sort of question I'd be trying to answer.

 

[Cruentus]

What happens when the Oinoloth is expelled from the Duke? Does it just scamper off? Turn and fight? Start laying waste to the assembled people? Bring in other extra planar creatures?

It sounds like the party has all the cards lined up to handle the Duke, and expose the Oinoloth (which they should feel proud about), but what happens next? Does the Oinoloth escape to plague them again? Try again in another City? Retreat and start spreading plagues?

There seem to be many places this can go after they expose the big story, and the BBEG fight might be a foregone conclusion, but killing the Oinoloth would be a cherry on top, regardless of how easy. Or it just escaping could be a bittersweet victory that they can savor, but knowing they have to track it down again, etc.

Sounds like a great adventure/setup/ending to me

 

[Flamestrike]

The current big bad that they are dealing with in my Masks of the Imperium campaign is a elf-hating duke who has made a deal with an Oinoloth in order to gain the knowledge of a genocide ritual, and for protection again his (PC) nephew who has killed him once before (in backstory).

(Note that the people of the dukedom are not evil - guards are most likely doing their job. Oh, and the party's patron is the Child-Empress currently without power because of a regent was imposed by the Council of Nobles, who has warned them that "Regicide is not a habit we wish to encourage my citizens to partake in", so killing the Duke without exposing the Oinoloth to the people won't work.)

The party has spent sessions setting everything up right. The found out about the Oinoloth (which was oriiginally planned ot be a surprise), researched it's powers, figured out how to expel it from the duke's body, were brilliant in putting that together with the fact that he would be at the dawn blessing of a Opympiad-expy at the hallowed shrine invoking th gods, and that they have a very good bard with them who can lead the spectators in a chant of exorcism for force the Oinoloth out of the body and to materialize.

They've gotten the loan of some items that will be particularly useful. They approached the head of the local clergy and let them know something is up, even if they were worried work would get back so they didn't tell them exactly. They've spread rumors among the people. They even found out that one powerful supposed ally of the duke will not help defend him.

Basically, they will be going into a fight that would have been a multi-stage boss battle with lots of surprises instead fully rested, prepped, with consumable magic up, knowing the foe and what they can do. And as the first fight of the day where you know it's a big one, PCs can punch well above their weight class.

So I expect this to turn into a meaningful but fairly pre-determined fight, that the PCs will have the upper hand.

And I worry that after putting sessions into lining all of that up, the players will feel cheated if they were able to turn it in a fight without a lot of tension. I could make it harder so that it feels like they worked to turn it from nigh-impossible to possible, but that's ignoring player actions in a way I don't like.

So, if you were a player and had invested several sessions in getting allies, information, and such about a big bad, and using that turned the conclusion of the arc into a fairly short fight because you were Batman-level prepared, would you feel great about it or would you feel like you wasted time and shouldn't have put in that much research and prep?

He's the Duke, add a ton of minions.

Or simply have the Duke, not really be the Duke. It's his Simulacrum or a Doppleganger or similar shape shifting Demon.

Alternatively the PCs have been running around contacting other planes, spreading rumors, and talking to people about the Duke. It's entirely plausible (likely even) that word of their interfering, and information gathering has reached the Dukes ear, and he has put a contingency in place.

Be devious with that contingency.

 

[Blue]

He's the Duke, add a ton of minions.

Or simply have the Duke, not really be the Duke. It's his Simulacrum or a Doppleganger or similar shape shifting Demon.

Alternatively the PCs have been running around contacting other planes, spreading rumors, and talking to people about the Duke. It's entirely plausible (likely even) that word of their interfering, and information gathering has reached the Dukes ear, and he has put a contingency in place.

Be devious with that contingency.

Oh sure, I know how to make it hard even with all of the advantages. I was looking specifically for player feedback about if I should.

 

[Blue]

Thanks folks, there's a pretty overwhelming consensus here to show all of the ways that the PCs preparation led to this win, and have it go from it's originally quite risky to pretty reasonable. And still need to show them a big climax, but it doesn't need to be because the fight was super hard.

 

[Flamestrike]

Oh sure, I know how to make it hard even with all of the advantages. I was looking specifically for player feedback about if I should.

But I am a player?

Im confused.

 

[Stormonu]

If the party has well-planned for their win, that's a good thing and they should be rewarded for it.

At the same time, if you do want to spice things up, there's always the "no plan survives contact with the enemy" and "things don't go smooth". That is, some unexpected, unaccounted for action by someone else can throw a monkeywrench into the plans - not countermanding the player's plans, but threatening to complicate things if they aren't dealt with appropriately (many heist movies use this subplot to create tension and drama to an otherwise "perfect" plan - such as Ocean's 11).

Bad weather hits unexpectedly, threatening to delay the party from arriving on time. Someone at court offends the duke and he orders everyone out and the party has to find another way in. Someone overhears part or all of the player's plan when they accidentally walk in on the characters, and has to be dealt with. One of the duke's sicophants challenges a PC to a duel, suspecting treachery.

Even if you don't go with any of the above, there's always the fallout what happens AFTER the duke is outed. Likely, he has supporters or allies who will not take kindly to the duke being offed, and may not believe the PC's story. There may be a spouse or offspring that attempt to avenge the duke's death - righteously or not. Other elf-haters may take up the duke's banner, either avoiding the PCs or seeking them out. Perhaps even elves may become wrathful learning the dukedom was willing to employ a demon to wipe them out, and the PCs may have to deal with stopping a war against or reprisals by the elves.