D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[ezo]

I still stand by that. If you operate in small groups and aren't social, you still may never have seen one. That doesn't mean you don't know they exist, but the expectation is going to be vastly different than a set of people who interact with a typical PC group regularly.

What do you mean "operate in small groups" and "aren't social"??? If you are those things, you don't fall under the umbrella of "most intelligent entities" IMO.

Regardless, if you know healing exists, why wouldn't you take the extra attack to make sure a fallen enemy stays down? I mean, of course if you are surrounded you have the standing ones to deal with, but that is why making the extra attack is situational.

Or, you could look at my actual point and not get snarky and nitpicky if that's not too hard.

I did look at your actual point, but you changed it, so I asked you to bring it back.

Authoritatively? No one. That doesn't stop me having an opinion and stand by it.

Right... But your claim was for most D&D worlds and intelligent entities not seeing a magical healer. I refuted that. You can have your opinion all you want.

Edit: And to make it clear, I'm not talking about specifically 5e here because I'm not qualified to do so, but I still think my point applies to D&D in general.

Even for D&D in general magical healers, healing potions, etc. have been commonplace in most D&D worlds/settings/published adventures. The only edition I can speak to this is 4E, which I never played. I can only state what exists in the TSR & WotC materials which, again, have magical healing (often magical "healers") as fairly abundant. Of course there are exceptions, but in general that is true IME. It is also the case in every homebrew game I have played in or run. I mean, frankly I hate how the fact 5E has healing potions as "common magical items" for 50 gp... but they are right there in the equipment section so that is how most people use them.

 

[ezo]

Appreciate the clarification, I see what you mean now.

My pleasure. It is always best when all parties are on the same wavelength.

In my experience though, it's still tough to have a low magic setting in modern DnD without hacking up a bunch of the system..

I agree completely! Most of our mods/homebrew is about making the 5E experience low-magic. The irony is the goal also makes it "more magical" at the same time.

unless you make it so that the PCs are the only humans etc. with such powerful magic, in which case any such foes as humans etc will have difficulty presenting a challenge to them after tier 1 (unless you send like, an army after them).

The smallest example I can think of is PCs abusing their magic for theft or to take advantage of someone etc. that wouldn't be familiar with how magic works.

Eh, this is a whole PITA tangent that's been rehashed over decades :'D

Sorry, I am not following this at all...

edit: On further thought, I guess this is why Eberron makes a great setting... it has potent low and mid-tier magic throughout, but specifically states that the PCs can/will reach greater heights than any NPC in the world.

See, and I cannot stand the concept of Eberron. It is not what I consider low-magic at all. It has abundant magic, about as common as electricity is IRL as I understand it (I could be mistaken??).

Low-magic IMO is a setting where casters are rare, magic is difficult and has consequences for failure, magic items are practically unheard of or legendary at the other extreme. Magical healing is borderline miraculous and the commonfolk stand in awe of it.

I guess this is why I love the E6 concept and similar ones so much. My current game is about to hit 9th level and I am getting tired of running it for this very reason...

 

[Lanefan]

Have their pursuit run into a larger force and get their butts kick--that should cure them of this habit quickly IME.

That'll just make them even more careful to knock off any runners before they can get away, or just somehow prevent them from running in the first place.

 

[ezo]

That'll just make them even more careful to knock off any runners before they can get away, or just somehow prevent them from running in the first place.

It seems like if they could already do that, they already would...

 

[TwoSix]

See, and I cannot stand the concept of Eberron. It is not what I consider low-magic at all. It has abundant magic, about as common as electricity is IRL as I understand it (I could be mistaken??).

Low-magic IMO is a setting where casters are rare, magic is difficult and has consequences for failure, magic items are practically unheard of or legendary at the other extreme. Magical healing is borderline miraculous and the commonfolk stand in awe of it.

Nope, that's pretty much exactly what Eberron is, which is why its my favorite setting. Low-level enchanted household items are extremely common, especially in cities. If you need to get to the next country over, it'll take a day (and some money) on the magical train.

I've always hated the idea of my PCs running around in stinky, disease-ridden medieval towns where peasants ooh and aah over a cure wounds spell.

An E10 game in Eberron is probably my sweet spot for what I like a D&D milieu to look like.

 

[ezo]

Nope, that's pretty much exactly what Eberron is, which is why its my favorite setting. Low-level enchanted household items are extremely common, especially in cities. If you need to get to the next country over, it'll take a day (and some money) on the magical train.

Ugh! You can keep it!

If I wanted that, I would play Harry Potter or something.

I've always hated the idea of my PCs running around in stinky, disease-ridden medieval towns where peasants ooh and aah over a cure wounds spell.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far, but give me gritty, low-magic, medieval D&D every day of the week!

An E10 game in Eberron is probably my sweet spot for what I like a D&D milieu to look like.

E10 in general I can live in. I recall in another thread the concept of "2E6" was touted in your name.

Seriously, 5E playing levels 3-8 or even 3-10 is about my limit.

 

[TwoSix]

E10 in general I can live in. I recall in another thread the concept of "2E6" was touted in your name.

Ooh, I'll have to look for that. I'm a meme!

 

[Distracted DM]

My pleasure. It is always best when all parties are on the same wavelength.


I agree completely! Most of our mods/homebrew is about making the 5E experience low-magic. The irony is the goal also makes it "more magical" at the same time.


Sorry, I am not following this at all...


See, and I cannot stand the concept of Eberron. It is not what I consider low-magic at all. It has abundant magic, about as common as electricity is IRL as I understand it (I could be mistaken??).

Low-magic IMO is a setting where casters are rare, magic is difficult and has consequences for failure, magic items are practically unheard of or legendary at the other extreme. Magical healing is borderline miraculous and the commonfolk stand in awe of it.

I guess this is why I love the E6 concept and similar ones so much. My current game is about to hit 9th level and I am getting tired of running it for this very reason...

Oh no, Eberron isn't low-magic at all. I'm saying it's great because its themes and setting fit exactly what modern DnD's mechanics lead to: very powerful, special PCs that stand out in a world that also has plenty of magic... rather than trying to force the square block of modern DnD into the round hole of wanting a low-magic Sword & Sorcery-type game. It doesn't pretend to be something else.

I too love the concept of E6- I've run a bunch of 5e games to tiers 3 and 4 now, and I really do not like it ... but I can't get my groups over to DCC, so I keep thinking of actually pulling the trigger on the E9 rules I made. FYI Brancalonia has E6 rules... it's basically "stop at 6 and buy some extra features with XP," which is pretty much what I did with my as-yet-unused E9 rules. Personally I made it E9 because that's roughly the level of power that I figure NPC adventurers would retire at.

The "issue" I ran into is that part of E6/9 is that if the party wants to take on bigger threats, they need to get assistance... but having help means that the PCs themselves are being joined by a bunch of NPCs in a fight, lets say squads of archers etc. to help with a dragon, which means the players themselves get are spending less time "playing" and the burden is greater on the GM to be controlling/rolling for all the NPCs ... unless you're putting those NPC squads under the players' control.

More tangents :'D

 

[ezo]

Oh no, Eberron isn't low-magic at all. I'm saying it's great because its themes and setting fit exactly what modern DnD's mechanics lead to: very powerful, special PCs that stand out in a world that also has plenty of magic... rather than trying to force the square block of modern DnD into the round hole of wanting a low-magic Sword & Sorcery-type game. It doesn't pretend to be something else.

Gotcha. I don't see "modern DnD's mechanics" leading to a world that also has plenty of magic-- IMO that is still a setting/ preference issue. However, I agree 5E does not lend itself to low-magic-type games in general.

I too love the concept of E6- I've run a bunch of 5e games to tiers 3 and 4 now, and I really do not like it ... but I can't get my groups over to DCC, so I keep thinking of actually pulling the trigger on the E9 rules I made. FYI Brancalonia has E6 rules... it's basically "stop at 6 and buy some extra features with XP," which is pretty much what I did with my as-yet-unused E9 rules. Personally I made it E9 because that's roughly the level of power that I figure NPC adventurers would retire at.

Sure, pretty much 5th-level spells are about the pinnacle of power I want: raise dead, wall of force, teleportation (forget "circle"), but you can stretch it to even 11th level and allow a single 6th-level spell for PCs such as disintegrate or something. 11th-level also allows for Extra Attack (2), for example. Finally, stretching it to E12 gives you a final feat if you want it.

The "issue" I ran into is that part of E6/9 is that if the party wants to take on bigger threats, they need to get assistance... but having help means that the PCs themselves are being joined by a bunch of NPCs in a fight, lets say squads of archers etc. to help with a dragon, which means the players themselves get are spending less time "playing" and the burden is greater on the GM to be controlling/rolling for all the NPCs ... unless you're putting those NPC squads under the players' control.

That is part of the importance of E6/9/12 even-- real threats as they are in 5E can still be very real threats! A CR 21 Lich or CR 20+ ancient dragon is something the PCs can't likely just take on. They will need something: a McGuffin, more "heroes", great tactics, etc. The PCs don't have tons of HP to just stand toe-to-toe with such threats.

It is part of the beauty of the concept, really.

More tangents :'D

Yep, but good ones.

 

[ezo]

Ooh, I'll have to look for that. I'm a meme!

Well, not a meme... but it starts here:

D&D 5E Post in thread 'E6 in 5e'

Oct 19, 2017

I like 2e6

• FrogReaver

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