D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[Mort]

Well, honestly, the people I play with would usually go "If the rules bite for doing functional retreats" (which I've argued an awful lot of RPG rules do) "then they do, and that's why we normally don't retreat if things go wrong, so we don't expect it to work out for the NPCs, either".

Yeah, retreating from combat in 5e is HARD.

In my game, I actually just use the old Gold Box rule (from the old series of computer games). Unless there are some circumstances that make it impossible, If a PC or a Baddie move off the map then they have retreated from the combat. Unrealistic? Yea, but it works and is very easy to apply.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Wizards have a lot of levers they can pull to do cool stuff. The trick is NOT to pull the lever that will make you the center of attention in a very bad way.

There's a reason an MU in the Bad Old Days who was going to do the levitation trick would normally throw Protection-Normal Missiles first.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, retreating from combat in 5e is HARD.

Its honestly difficult in most games if ranged attacks are available, because you're potentially in range for move-and-shoot too, too long. You can sometimes pull it off if there's a lot of distributed cover, but that isn't always the case.

Its traditionally been even worse for PCs because a lot of them were significantly slower than some monsters.

In my game, I actually just use the old Gold Box rule (from the old series of computer games). Unless there are some circumstances that make it impossible, If a PC or a Baddie move off the map then they have retreated from the combat. Unrealistic? Yea, but it works and is very easy to apply.

Something like that or a dedicated chase system is the only way fleeing isn't often an idiot's game in a lot of systems.

 

[ezo]

I guess I should've specified a low magic setting, since we're talking about the how widespread and known magic is... not the magic of your specific party

No, I meant setting as well. In tier 1, PCs are not likely to encounter anything "high magic", no powerfully magical beings, spells, or items. As they continue to adventure, the setting expands and the overall level of magic with it as the PCs travel to more remote places, encounter more rare creatures, learn more powerful spells, and discover more powerful magic.

With every encounter though? How many times do even those humanoids get in a combat where their tribal shaman is back home with the rest of the tribe?

There's a big difference between "knows healing magic exists" and "expects to run into it in every fight".

Who said anything about "with every encounter" or anything remotely like it??

You said: "Except, even in a D&D world, many intelligent entities may have never seen a magical healer. Just because they're endemic in PC groups doesn't mean they're common."

I refuted many intelligent entities will likely have SEEN a magical healer at some point and gave examples where they might have been encountered.

So, we were never talking anything remotely like "expects to run into it in every fight", were we??? Let's keep the goalposts where you started them.

But I'm not talking about PCs here. PCs have all kinds of things present that are not, by all evidence, routine even for heavy combatants.

Neither am I. I am talking about "many intelligent entities" within the game world, which is why I mention commoners seeing a priest in a procession, a shaman in humanoid tribe, etc. where "healers" are often seen at some point BY the commoners, tribe members, etc.

I disagree its false in D&D worlds; I think you're likely overgeneralizing from limited samples and assuming those samples are typical for routine combatants.

You're free to disagree of course, but you're wrong if you look at all the published materials WotC, TSR, and probably most 3PP have created. Of course, again you shift towards combatants.

Most intelligent beings have seen magical healers, but I have no evidence they've seen them in every or even the majority of combats they've ever been in.

Ok, good, I am glad we're on the same page then.

As for any evidence about what combats they've been in, besides those with PCs which we experience first-hand often as players or DM, who can say? Frankly, they don't exist for the most part except as whatever part of the story the DM regulates them to. But given the relative cost in 5E of something as simple as a healing potion, I would imagine a number of intelligent beings have probably seen such things in a lot of battles.

Take the new gnoll warrior stat block. The gnoll as frackin' half-plate armor worth 750 gp! Chain mail would give them the same AC for 1/10th the cost--and all that other gold could easy cover the cost of a couple healing potions...

But that is besides the point. The simple fact is in most D&D games/worlds magical healers exists, most intelligent beings have seen them and know of them, so it makes sense that those intelligent creatures might take the time to double-tap or single-tap a foe to increase the chance they stay down in case the other side has a magical healer, potion, item, or whatever that would get the foe up and back in the fight again, otherwise.

Now, in looking at the evidence we do know about--involving PCs, how few D&D games have you played in where there was not some form of magical healing; be it potion, spell, or other item? Frankly, I can't think of a single one. I've played in D&D games without clerics or spell-healing, but in 5E not buying a simple healing potion seems crazy at least when you often have the coin for it.

 

[ezo]

Most of the time mine would simply consider that deliberately punitive, since there's no reason the larger group wouldn't be on the way anyway. Not like combats are usually quiet.

It is greatly situational, sure.

 

[Chaltab]

Yeah, retreating from combat in 5e is HARD.

The last time I had a situation where retreat was the best course, most of the party didn't listen to me and it was a TPK.

Those of us who actually tried to retreat got downed by OAs.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The last time I had a situation where retreat was the best course, most of the party didn't listen to me and it was a TPK.

Those of us who actually tried to retreat got downed by OAs.

That's always the problem; in a lot of cases, you actually decrease your survival chance by retreating in a lot of games, because its not like you can do a full retreat and fight at the same time. Even a losing fight looks better than being cut down by missile fire or rode down by faster opponents.

 

[ezo]

That's always the problem; in a lot of cases, you actually decrease your survival chance by retreating in a lot of games, because its not like you can do a full retreat and fight at the same time. Even a losing fight looks better than being cut down by missile fire or rode down by faster opponents.

It is certainly a flaw in most games. Frankly, I can't think of a single one that does it "well".

Unless you can out-pace, out-hide, or similar, fleeing gets you no where fast.

 

[Thomas Shey]

No, I meant setting as well. In tier 1, PCs are not likely to encounter anything "high magic", no powerfully magical beings, spells, or items. As they continue to adventure, the setting expands and the overall level of magic with it as the PCs travel to more remote places, encounter more rare creatures, learn more powerful spells, and discover more powerful magic.


Who said anything about "with every encounter" or anything remotely like it??

You said: "Except, even in a D&D world, many intelligent entities may have never seen a magical healer. Just because they're endemic in PC groups doesn't mean they're common."

I still stand by that. If you operate in small groups and aren't social, you still may never have seen one. That doesn't mean you don't know they exist, but the expectation is going to be vastly different than a set of people who interact with a typical PC group regularly.

I refuted many intelligent entities will likely have SEEN a magical healer at some point and gave examples where they might have been encountered.

So, we were never talking anything remotely like "expects to run into it in every fight", were we??? Let's keep the goalposts where you started them.

Or, you could look at my actual point and not get snarky and nitpicky if that's not too hard.

As for any evidence about what combats they've been in, besides those with PCs which we experience first-hand often as players or DM, who can say?

Authoritatively? No one. That doesn't stop me having an opinion and stand by it.

Edit: And to make it clear, I'm not talking about specifically 5e here because I'm not qualified to do so, but I still think my point applies to D&D in general.

 

[Distracted DM]

No, I meant setting as well. In tier 1, PCs are not likely to encounter anything "high magic", no powerfully magical beings, spells, or items. As they continue to adventure, the setting expands and the overall level of magic with it as the PCs travel to more remote places, encounter more rare creatures, learn more powerful spells, and discover more powerful magic.

Appreciate the clarification, I see what you mean now.

In my experience though, it's still tough to have a low magic setting in modern DnD without hacking up a bunch of the system.. unless you make it so that the PCs are the only humans etc. with such powerful magic, in which case any such foes as humans etc will have difficulty presenting a challenge to them after tier 1 (unless you send like, an army after them).

The smallest example I can think of is PCs abusing their magic for theft or to take advantage of someone etc. that wouldn't be familiar with how magic works.

Eh, this is a whole PITA tangent that's been rehashed over decades :'D

edit: On further thought, I guess this is why Eberron makes a great setting... it has potent low and mid-tier magic throughout, but specifically states that the PCs can/will reach greater heights than any NPC in the world.