D&D General DnD cosmology - Which Edition do you prefer?

[dave2008]

3rd ed, which assumed that each setting would have its own cosmology suited to its own needs. Cosmology should be a setting-level decision, not a game-level one.

I don't mind the unified approach of 5e, as I have no issue ignoring or modifying what I want; however, I do think this would be the best approach.

 

[Lyxen]

One of the things about the world axis that I felt resonated with me, was that the mythology paralleled real world myths and legends. The great war between gods and primordials was basically reflecting the conflicts like the Norse gods vs. the giants, or the Greek gods vs. the titans. For me, it was less about the actual layout of the planes that I liked, though I think it's cool, but this conflict that I liked about it.

Hey, we are just talking preferences here, and yours are as valid as mine for playing. I understand what you say, what I'm pointing out that, for me, it's (as you say) classical for example for Norse/Greek, and that it is one dimensional, Gods vs. Primordials (and generally as described in adventures good vs. evil), whereas I (my preference, not an absolute judgement) prefer the great wheel as there are inherently two dimensions in there. And this, of course, in addition to all the other feuds between factions and specific deities that can happen however the cosmology is built.

 

[Lyxen]

Because it doesn't matter what you intend. It doesn't matter how you feel or what you think of others, nor whether you are truly a good/evil/whatever person, nor even whether you had a change of heart in some cases. Do too many pure evil acts and you're bound for an evil plane no matter what. Doesn't matter if you work your butt off to do better and genuinely turn over a new leaf, if you murdered even one person in a fit of pique at 18 and lived like a saint to try to make up for it, you still go to Hell.

You whole argument is based on this, but I don't have the same view at all. Why do you think there can be no (even last minute) redemption or (last minute) sudden fall ? Why would some acts not count more than others, and the same for circumstances ? Why does the end not matter more than the path, or the other way around ?

Moreover, there are a lot of intermediate planes, which means that you might not even go all the way down to hell, depending on the act and the rest of the life.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You whole argument is based on this, but I don't have the same view at all. Why do you think there can be no (even last minute) redemption or (last minute) sudden fall ? Why would some acts not count more than others, and the same for circumstances ? Why does the end not matter more than the path, or the other way around ?

Because that's how alignment is executed by the fundamental reality of the planes. Redemption cannot occur last-minute, and falls only occur last-minute if you break one of the universe's hard-coded rules that cause irrevocable fall no matter what your life was like (e.g. murdering an innocent). The game's mechanics for how alignment changes are hard-coded into the planes themselves in the Great Wheel. Alignment isn't a weird kludge instituted by human GMs so we can talk about concrete moral consequences to actions; it is an inherent, objective, hard-coded, and completely uncompromising ruleset of reality, such that physical objects in the planes will literally re-align themselves to make sure that they are forced to adhere to their "actual" alignment. Hence the sloughing off of an entire layer of Arcadia into Mechanus when its residents became too obsessed with Law and had ceased to be sufficiently "Law-with-Good-characteristics."

Like, I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Alignment in the Great Wheel is the sum of your actions, coldly calculated by the universe itself. There is no judge to appeal to, and every deed and decision you make is instantaneously and inerrantly added to your "credit score," as ironically named earlier in the thread. It has both a set of "if you do these things, you are damned forever, no matter what" rules, and a "the consequences of your actions matter, not the intent of your actions nor the content of your heart." The universe doesn't care if you save the orphans because you want a cushy afterlife or because you genuinely love children and can't stand the thought of them being hurt; it only cares that you save orphans or don't.

Moreover, there are a lot of intermediate planes, which means that you might not even go all the way down to hell, depending on the act and the rest of the life.

My apologies. You might get sent to one of the five nigh-identical "this is a blasted wasteland of evil" planes (which I had to look up, as I can never remember which is which: Pandaemonium, Carceri, Hades, Gehenna, and Acheron. Leaving out only the Abyss and Hell because those are famous enough to actually be remembered on their own, since those two are also nigh-indistinguishable from the horrible awfulness of the other "lower planes." Other than having giant cubes vs giant spheres, can you tell the difference between Pandaemonium and Acheron?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I prefer various conflicting cosmologies and shun any kind of cosmic absolutism.

 

[JEB]

Other than having giant cubes vs giant spheres, can you tell the difference between Pandaemonium and Acheron?

Pandemonium is a plane that tries to drive you mad with incessant howling (CE with more chaos), while Acheron is a plane of pointless warfare (LE with more law; the opposite number of Ysgard, which glorifies battle). Carceri is a prison (NE with more chaos), Hades (pure NE; the Gray Waste) is about despair.

Now Gehenna (NE with more law), that one I can't recall off the top of my head, something about volcanoes?

 

[Lyxen]

Because that's how alignment is executed by the fundamental reality of the planes.

Proof ?

Redemption cannot occur last-minute, and falls only occur last-minute if you break one of the universe's hard-coded rules that cause irrevocable fall no matter what your life was like (e.g. murdering an innocent).

Proof ?

The game's mechanics for how alignment changes are hard-coded into the planes themselves in the Great Wheel.

Proof ? I'm sorry, but the fact that you want to play it that way is for me not reflected in the rules. Once more, alignment is not a straight jacket, never has been, and it's been repeated time and time again in all editions that most creatures except aligned planar ones are not consistent with alignment. Doing ONE act out of one's alignment is certainly not necessarily a reason for immediate change. It might, and then it might not, there are no RULES there (except in rare cases like 1e paladin, and even then it was not that black and white).

Alignment isn't a weird kludge instituted by human GMs so we can talk about concrete moral consequences to actions; it is an inherent, objective, hard-coded, and completely uncompromising ruleset of reality, such that physical objects in the planes will literally re-align themselves to make sure that they are forced to adhere to their "actual" alignment.

Huh, no. Once more, you have a proof of that in the very argument that you make below.

Hence the sloughing off of an entire layer of Arcadia into Mechanus when its residents became too obsessed with Law and had ceased to be sufficiently "Law-with-Good-characteristics."

And that just shows that even planar creatures are not constrained by their alignemtn and it's not ONE act that changed things, but things over time, for a large part of a population.

Like, I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Alignment in the Great Wheel is the sum of your actions, coldly calculated by the universe itself.

And this is the part that you are making out of nowhere. Where exactly does it say this ? In any edition ?

There is no judge to appeal to, and every deed and decision you make is instantaneously and inerrantly added to your "credit score," as ironically named earlier in the thread. It has both a set of "if you do these things, you are damned forever, no matter what" rules, and a "the consequences of your actions matter, not the intent of your actions nor the content of your heart." The universe doesn't care if you save the orphans because you want a cushy afterlife or because you genuinely love children and can't stand the thought of them being hurt; it only cares that you save orphans or don't.

This is your interpretation, but I don't think it's supported by anything rather than your personal view that it's that way. On the contrary, every description of alignment shows that it's not played that way, that people are not consistent with their alignment all the time, and that acts out of alignement don't cause a change immediately. There are shades within each alignement, minor actions will not affect it. But even if major actions might make a change, does not that mean that it can somewhat IGNORE what the past has been ? And this in any direction ?

In any case, all of that is so much subject to a DM's interpretation that I will leave your personal interpretation to you, but to you only.

My apologies. You might get sent to one of the five nigh-identical "this is a blasted wasteland of evil" planes (which I had to look up, as I can never remember which is which: Pandaemonium, Carceri, Hades, Gehenna, and Acheron. Leaving out only the Abyss and Hell because those are famous enough to actually be remembered on their own, since those two are also nigh-indistinguishable from the horrible awfulness of the other "lower planes." Other than having giant cubes vs giant spheres, can you tell the difference between Pandaemonium and Acheron?

Actually yes, I can, because I am a Planescape fan and I love these planes. But it's not what I was saying. Let's say that you are LG, first, there is little likelihood that you will, out of the blue, commit an act so hideous that it will shift you all the way to CE or even LE. As mentioned multiple times in multiple editions, few person are completely consistent, and ONE act will probably not make you shift. But even if you do shift, there are many gradations, assuming that it's no longer The Seven Heaven, you might go to Arcadia, Nirvana, Acheron, and it's very unlikely that you will go straight to the Nine Hells.

 

[Lyxen]

Pandemonium is a plane that tries to drive you mad with incessant howling (CE with more chaos), while Acheron is a plane of pointless warfare (LE with more law; the opposite number of Ysgard, which glorifies battle). Carceri is a prison (NE with more chaos), Hades (pure NE; the Gray Waste) is about despair.

Now Gehenna (NE with more law), that one I can't recall off the top of my head, something about volcanoes?

Indeed Volcanoes, but for me Gehenna evokes Barghests (cool monsters in any edition, it's always interesting to remember planes by their inhabitants), but also Bhaal's Throne of Blood.

 

[cbwjm]

Hey, we are just talking preferences here, and yours are as valid as mine for playing. I understand what you say, what I'm pointing out that, for me, it's (as you say) classical for example for Norse/Greek, and that it is one dimensional, Gods vs. Primordials (and generally as described in adventures good vs. evil), whereas I (my preference, not an absolute judgement) prefer the great wheel as there are inherently two dimensions in there. And this, of course, in addition to all the other feuds between factions and specific deities that can happen however the cosmology is built.

Oh, I like the great wheel as well, might even be my preference, even though I'm not currently using it in my own homebrew setting. I was just explaining why I think the world axis resonated with me. It worked well, I think, because it used real world myths through a DnD lense as the basis for how the multiverse existed in its current state.

 

[Lyxen]

Oh, I like the great wheel as well, might even be my preference, even though I'm not currently using it in my own homebrew setting. I was just explaining why I think the world axis resonated with me. It worked well, I think, because it used real world myths through a DnD lense as the basis for how the multiverse existed in its current state.

Indeed, it's much easier to explain, none of the intricacies of inner and outer planes, and various transitive planes, etc. and of course the myth resonates with things that people know about. I still missed some planes and alignments which had been fundamental to me every since 1e, so long ago, that's all. 5e is also more compatible with everything published before, Planescape of course, but lots of modules touched the planes, inner and outer, at some point.