D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[Maxperson]

None of that is controversial content.

Start a thread asking to bring back save or die effects and see the controversy erupt.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

He was pretty clearly talking about mechanical options, not art.

Genuinely no idea how I was supposed to know that. Literally the only reference to mechanics was that psionics isn't present, and I took that in a much less explicitly "this is exclusively about mechanics." Particularly when he uses phrases like, "the tone is different." What "tone" are mechanics supposed to have?

If he had meant mechanics the whole time, it would've been nice to say so three posts earlier, rather than giving confusing mixed messages. I'm not a mind reader.

 

[Zardnaar]

Genuinely no idea how I was supposed to know that. Literally the only reference to mechanics was that psionics isn't present, and I took that in a much less explicitly "this is exclusively about mechanics." Particularly when he uses phrases like, "the tone is different." What "tone" are mechanics supposed to have?

If he had meant mechanics the whole time, it would've been nice to say so three posts earlier, rather than giving confusing mixed messages. I'm not a mind reader.

Tones subjective though. When was the last time you compared the two?

Might help if you don't start denying someone's emotional experience. Comparing 3E and 5E is like comparing 1Evabd 2E or 1E and BECMI.
They're now aiming 5E at widervgroups that's changed from release, 3E was kinda aimed at late teens/early 20's maybe okder group bringing back stuff cut from 2E.

3E pushedvthe envelope more espicially in the Paizo stuff. IMHO of course.

I could post pictures as well but some mod would probably get upset.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Where do you go from there? When is it time for the group to retire and start from scratch? Or do they go off into the multiverse to raid astral palaces and slay hordes of “godlins”?

While you make a joke here, that's what I would do if the players felt there was still more to explore with these characters.

I've extended the mechanics of Dungeon World outside their usual limits (turning XP into a sort of hybrid point-buy/benny system) so the players can keep growing their characters. Building up towards things via roleplay may earn discounts or just directly create new options. They're definitely power players now in-universe, but not quite at the top of the game. Getting there, but not there yet. The true masterminds have begun to take notice, and have begun using them as star pieces on the great gameboard of politicking and manipulation.

If instead the players feel that the story has run its course, even if I still think the characters are cool, far be it for me to tell them to keep playing. We'll move on to pastures new. Maybe in the same world, maybe not. I have made it a biggish place, but I also have other ideas.

Not interrogating you, just always curious how high level play evolves. Should it scale up indefinitely, or should characters “age out” into different types of gameplay?

Well...for me the answer is a bit "yes." I can still invent relatively beat-em-up adventures for high level stuff. But now that they're politically connected, they have new worries. Going unseen despite their game is relevant. Worrying about the political consequences of their actions is something they have to consider now. Forging alliances, sometimes In Advance, is important enough that even my quiet player who doesn't involve himself in RP much has started doing it spontaneously. That's a partial shift to a new register without totally leaving the old one behind. Growth, not just change.

Tones subjective though. When was the last time you compared the two?

Might help if you don't start denying someone's emotional experience. Comparing 3E and 5E is like comparing 1Evabd 2E or 1E and BECMI.
They're now aiming 5E at widervgroups that's changed from release, 3E was kinda aimed at late teens/early 20's maybe okder group bringing back stuff cut from 2E.

3E pushedvthe envelope more espicially in the Paizo stuff. IMHO of course.

I could post pictures as well but some mod would probably get upset.

Oh for God's sake. Zardnaar, that is EXACTLY what I was saying earlier! I explicitly said that this is so subjective, personal, and emotional that it could not be communicated in words. That it was something YOU experience but others might not, and that YOU seemed to be the one who couldn't conceive of others not seeing what you see.

Like, for real here, you have quite literally objected to what I said and then literally turned around to skewer me WITH MY OWN POINT:

Okay but like...you do realize how squishy and vague that whole statement is, right?

It's an ineffable "vibe" that you just "pick up on...straight away." I'm not sure it is possible to more concisely say, "This is so subjective, personal, and emotional, it cannot be communicated with words." And yet you seem to see it as not only intuitively obvious, but axiomatic. THAT is the problem a lot of us are having. We DON'T "pick up on it straight away." In some cases, we "pick up on" its outright opposite (see: my response to The Wild Beyond the Witchlight).

Perhaps, to you, this is so plain, so inescapable, that it is difficult to conceive of how someone would not see it. But I don't, and it seems a fair number of others don't either. Presuming that your perceptions are self-evident truths leads many an argument to run aground. Perhaps consider not doing that.

If you're going to take me to task for something, at least pick something I didn't say today.

 

[Maxperson]

Genuinely no idea how I was supposed to know that. Literally the only reference to mechanics was that psionics isn't present, and I took that in a much less explicitly "this is exclusively about mechanics." Particularly when he uses phrases like, "the tone is different." What "tone" are mechanics supposed to have?

Deadly and not deadly are tones. The tone of 1e was darker and deadlier than 5e. The mechanics set that tone.

If he had meant mechanics the whole time, it would've been nice to say so three posts earlier, rather than giving confusing mixed messages. I'm not a mind reader.

We've all had instances where we were not as clear as we could have been.

 

[Zardnaar]

While you make a joke here, that's what I would do if the players felt there was still more to explore with these characters.

I've extended the mechanics of Dungeon World outside their usual limits (turning XP into a sort of hybrid point-buy/benny system) so the players can keep growing their characters. Building up towards things via roleplay may earn discounts or just directly create new options. They're definitely power players now in-universe, but not quite at the top of the game. Getting there, but not there yet. The true masterminds have begun to take notice, and have begun using them as star pieces on the great gameboard of politicking and manipulation.

If instead the players feel that the story has run its course, even if I still think the characters are cool, far be it for me to tell them to keep playing. We'll move on to pastures new. Maybe in the same world, maybe not. I have made it a biggish place, but I also have other ideas.


Well...for me the answer is a bit "yes." I can still invent relatively beat-em-up adventures for high level stuff. But now that they're politically connected, they have new worries. Going unseen despite their game is relevant. Worrying about the political consequences of their actions is something they have to consider now. Forging alliances, sometimes In Advance, is important enough that even my quiet player who doesn't involve himself in RP much has started doing it spontaneously. That's a partial shift to a new register without totally leaving the old one behind. Growth, not just change.


Oh for God's sake. Zardnaar, that is EXACTLY what I was saying earlier! I explicitly said that this is so subjective, personal, and emotional that it could not be communicated in words. That it was something YOU experience but others might not, and that YOU seemed to be the one who couldn't conceive of others not seeing what you see.

Like, for real here, you have quite literally objected to what I said and then literally turned around to skewer me WITH MY OWN POINT:



If you're going to take me to task for something, at least pick something I didn't say today.

People were denying it has been Disneyfied. I understand what they mean with that term. Basically it's been sanitized and I don't think you can objectively say it hasn't been.

What is subjective if you like these changes or not.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

People were denying it has been Disneyfied. I understand what they mean with that term. Basically it's been sanitized and I don't think you can objectively say it hasn't been.

And I don't think you can objectively say it has been. That's my whole point. You are acting like your position is objective. It's not.

 

[John R Davis]

IME 12 year olds want to murder hobo everything.

Half of the last ten or so on Morris list are "fluffy" . Something must have changed for me as I purchased lots of the first dozen or so books, and ran/played a lot of them.

Since then I have purchased/ played none of them.

I will buy the next starter set ( only because I'm a sucker for such things for many games), maybe the spelljammer slip case set as it seems a decent price even in UK.

Summary: There definitely feels like there has been a change, even if there hasnt

 

[dave2008]

Where do you go from there? When is it time for the group to retire and start from scratch? Or do they go off into the multiverse to raid astral palaces and slay hordes of “godlins”?

Ideally they make it to level 20 and then we retire this campaign. There are still challenges to overcome and threats to thwart. There is a small possibility we may ascend the characters and play them as immortals (I am working on an "Immortals" update to 5e). Bust most likely we will retire those characters.

Not interrogating you, just always curious how high level play evolves. Should it scale up indefinitely, or should characters “age out” into different types of gameplay?

Both are options. The characters are in there mid 30s now and will start to decline physically if the keep adventuring to much more. I don't think we plan to take this campaign past 20 so that is the likely result.

 

[Zardnaar]

And I don't think you can objectively say it has been. That's my whole point. You are acting like your position is objective. It's not.

Erm they've been pushing that since 5E released. Mearls on art eg sexualization etc very early in 5E ,(or even before?).

Don't think we're gonna see an implied orgy or a demon run orphanage in 5E.

And the whole Drow thing.

And it's a fact 2E-4E had more mechanical options. All I'm saying is I understand what they mean if they're claiming the games been Disneyfied.

It's basically an insult but it's not without foundation.