Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[niklinna]

Well, that and the fact that you are pretty limited if you run out of persona/fate points is going to MAKE you go for 'in-your-face' kind of play, because you will simply dry and die as a non-entity... Of course that also means you really need to horde those suckers, which is the whole other dynamic at play.

I have definitely not been hoarding my fate/persona points. Looks like I'll be in trouble soon!

Currency/limits reminds me that I need to look up what's involved in getting a trait up to 3, at which level you just have +1s to all applicable rolls. What better excuse to start reaching?

 

[clearstream]

As best I can tell, the function of the "reaching" rule is a reminder to keep the fiction coherent (whatever that means for a given table) and vivid. If a player can think of a way in which First Born figures despite the absence of trees, stars and ancient memories - perhaps the blandness of their preserved rations makes them pine for lembas, and that sets back a test being made on the back of a recovery from hungry and thirsty - then to me that seems to be a virtue rather than a flaw. To me, at least, it seems that characterisation in Torchbearer is expected to be bright-hued and in-your-face, and traits are part of that, and the reaching admonition is part of that.

The first part seems right (keep the fiction coherent), but the second part raises questions for me. The Reaching rule reads

Reaching There’s a phenomenon with traits that we call reaching. It’s a situation when a trait clearly doesn’t fit, but a player is working really hard to convince the group that it’ll work. This behavior is not creative. It’s just short of begging, and it’s certainly always bull. If you feel a player is reaching, tell them so. Give them a moment to readjust. If they don’t have anything better to add, then move on. The trait doesn’t apply.

My take is more that it admonishes against trying to spatchcock traits into every situation. What do you think? Here is an example trait

Bitter Some turn bitter in their travels and grow to feel all their efforts are for nothing. This bitterness may protect them from the many and varied disappointments of life as an adventurer, but it also burdens them. They have trouble taking the optimistic course.

Many of the fictional elements in Torchbearer are bleak, and we interpret it as a grim story. In-your-face feels right. Bright-hued not so much!

[EDIT Or do you mean bright-hued in a blood-against-snow, bright-blade-edge sort of way? We've seen the world as grimier, but I can see that working too.]

 

[pemerton]

Currency/limits reminds me that I need to look up what's involved in getting a trait up to 3

I think it comes from the trait vote during respite.

 

[niklinna]

I think it comes from the trait vote during respite.

Yep that's it, thanks!

 

[pemerton]

The Reaching rule reads

It’s a situation when a trait clearly doesn’t fit, but a player is working really hard to convince the group that it’ll work. This behavior is not creative. It’s just short of begging, and it’s certainly always bull. If you feel a player is reaching, tell them so. Give them a moment to readjust. If they don’t have anything better to add, then move on. The trait doesn’t apply.

My take is more that it admonishes against trying to spatchcock traits into every situation

This is not written in a technical fashion. It begins by positing that the trait clearly doesn't fit, but then allows that the player might "readjust" by adding something better. In a technical text, that would be contradiction. But in this text I don't take it to be a contradiction, because when it posits that the trait clearly doesn't fit, what it really means is that the player hasn't offered some fiction in which the trait figures coherently. If the player can "readjust" by coming up with some better fiction, then the trait does apply. Hence why I posted, upthread, that the concern is with coherent and vivid fiction, not with rationing the use of traits - the rationing function comes from elsewhere, and is based on cues - end of session refresh - and not fiction.

Other parts of the text encourage players to use traits against themselves, and remind the GM to remind the players of this possibility (DHB p 82; SG p 220). This reinforces, to me, the view I've expressed about how traits are to be rationed, and what it is that the reaching rule is concerned with.

Many of the fictional elements in Torchbearer are bleak, and we interpret it as a grim story. In-your-face feels right. Bright-hued not so much!

[EDIT Or do you mean bright-hued in a blood-against-snow, bright-blade-edge sort of way? We've seen the world as grimier, but I can see that working too.]

I mean bright-hued as opposed to subtle. Burning Wheel can be subtle. I think Apocalypse World is intended to admit of subtlety. Torchbearer doesn't strike me as subtle at all in the characterisation and setting it fosters. The PCs are painted in these bright, broad brushstrokes. The setting elements have their gameplay function called out front and centre - camps for camp phase and settlements for town phase - and they have shrines for blessings and temples for joining cults and guilds for crafting and taverns for drinking and learning rumours. Your friends always put you up, and your parents always have a small gift for you, unless a disaster has wiped their settlement from the map!

It's a game that knows, and embraces, its tropes.

 

[clearstream]

This is not written in a technical fashion. It begins by positing that the trait clearly doesn't fit, but then allows that the player might "readjust" by adding something better. In a technical text, that would be contradiction. But in this text I don't take it to be a contradiction, because when it posits that the trait clearly doesn't fit, what it really means is that the player hasn't offered some fiction in which the trait figures coherently. If the player can "readjust" by coming up with some better fiction, then the trait does apply. Hence why I posted, upthread, that the concern is with coherent and vivid fiction, not with rationing the use of traits - the rationing function comes from elsewhere, and is based on cues - end of session refresh - and not fiction.

I see. Your take is an appealing one. I find it off the mark because to me it doesn't speak to where traits sit in the game economy. I see the pressure on players to use them wherever possible, and Reaching articulates a natural design response to that. It admonishes against begging and advises the group to move on. How that might play out is a small delta in the game economy between our tables.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have definitely not been hoarding my fate/persona points. Looks like I'll be in trouble soon!

Currency/limits reminds me that I need to look up what's involved in getting a trait up to 3, at which level you just have +1s to all applicable rolls. What better excuse to start reaching?

Well, my problem was I guess I didn't really push as hard as I should have on my character, which meant that I got NO persona points in the first end of session, and thus I had just the one I started with, which ran out pretty fast... (and even that's a non-canonical @Manbearcat gift, lol). I did earn one at some point, and now I've earned a third one and haven't spent that yet! Fate points seem to be slightly less potent, but are still pretty useful. I mean, Tap Nature is really basically THE most potent move you can make in the game, especially if it is aligning with your descriptors. So there is REALLY strong incentives to accomplish your goal, or go against your belief. Using your Instinct of course being the 'easy' way to get fate, though I didn't actually find it THAT easy, since it seemed like doing it in my case would tap the grind...

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright.

@AbdulAlhazred , @kenada , @niklinna . You’re through 2 x Journey/Adventure/Town phases of play with 3 x Camp phases.

You’ve lost 2 PCs but heroically/nobly (RIP Ruby and Jasper.

You’ve rediscovered Elfhome (Woodcleft), rescued an elven babe and gained Precedence with the Elves.

You’ve barely survived a Spiritual Conflict with a fell entity from another world (fleeing with Ruby sacrificing herself so the others might live.

You’ve dealt with your Enemies (Merrick and The Bear) for both good and for ill.

You’ve recovered Awanye the Elf’s sister’s body for proper burial in their homelands.

You’ve mapped an entire mountain expedition.

You’ve dealt with a haunted Hangman Tree.

You’ve lost a Trick Conflict to a Witch who lured you into an illusory enchanted forest where Jasper was cursed to do her bidding (which later led to his noble fate).

You’ve ritually thawed the Valkyrie stop her mountain perch by relighting Orin’s Everburning Brazier, heralding the return of warriors from faraway lands as she can once again watch over their battles and take them to Valhalla.

You’ve fearlessly (or foolishly!) fought a White Dragon (neither Adult nor Ancient…but Dragon nonetheless!) by her side and taken its horde.


Thoughts on Torchbearer 2 thus far?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Alright.

@AbdulAlhazred , @kenada , @niklinna . You’re through 2 x Journey/Adventure/Town phases of play with 3 x Camp phases.

You’ve lost 2 PCs but heroically/nobly (RIP Ruby and Jasper.

You’ve rediscovered Elfhome (Woodcleft), rescued an elven babe and gained Precedence with the Elves.

You’ve barely survived a Spiritual Conflict with a fell entity from another world (fleeing with Ruby sacrificing herself so the others might live.

You’ve dealt with your Enemies (Merrick and The Bear) for both good and for ill.

You’ve recovered Awanye the Elf’s sister’s body for proper burial in their homelands.

You’ve mapped an entire mountain expedition.

You’ve dealt with a haunted Hangman Tree.

You’ve lost a Trick Conflict to a Witch who lured you into an illusory enchanted forest where Jasper was cursed to do her bidding (which later led to his noble fate).

You’ve ritually thawed the Valkyrie stop her mountain perch by relighting Orin’s Everburning Brazier, heralding the return of warriors from faraway lands as she can once again watch over their battles and take them to Valhalla.

You’ve fearlessly (or foolishly!) fought a White Dragon (neither Adult nor Ancient…but Dragon nonetheless!) by her side and taken its horde.


Thoughts on Torchbearer 2 thus far?

I think its interesting. In terms of basic game design aspects, I am of a mind that less is more, and TB2, like its parent BW/MG systems, is definitely more of a 'more is more' kind of design philosophy. Also the books are horribly badly organized, lol. OTOH it is pretty solid, the system WORKS and it is, presumably, supporting the type of gameplay, themes, and genre that the designers intended. We're having fun, or at least I've been having fun.

In terms of theme/genre/tone, I think TB2 clearly has a goal of laying on a kind of 'crapsack world, but with a chance of being an actual hero'. From a standpoint of a goal of skilled play I think that's generally a pretty effective spot to be in (I'd note that Stonetop sounds like it isn't too far off from that thematically, though with more of a feel of society will eventually flourish even if these are rough times. TB2's conceit seems to be more like "civilization is doomed, but maybe you can put a pin in it for a while."

Anyway, its fun and I assume we will try to keep playing, as I'm happy to go on trying to figure out what the next threat to Elfhome is and attempt to thwart it (though I could also see some sort of personal crisis on that point, if say a love interest or something interfered, except TB2 is kind of grim, so I guess its a question of whether the doomed love interest would outweigh helping the doomed community, lol).

 

[niklinna]

It's a mixed bag for me. The game delivers on the tone it promises: Everything is scarce, every choice is difficult, danger is ever-present. Unrelentingly so, as your personal strength is ground down the whole time. Even when we got the dragon hoard we were like, "How are we even gonna carry all this stuff!?" and had to plan a return trip, and then lost a bit of our loot on arrival at town too. I'm not sure how much I need to be emulating that feeling in a game given the state of the real world right now, but Torchbearer 2 certainly has it, which has made for some very engaging play.

I find the rules overly complicated, poorly written, and poorly organized. It has many distinct yet interlocking subsystems: abilities & skills (with several special ones that have additional rules), instincts, traits/checks, wises, persona points, fate points (because why have just one currency?), conditions, conflicts, arcana, invocations, and more. Every rule seems to have exceptions. No given thing is described completely in any one place, except perhaps spells & invocations: I was routinely surprised to learn new things about something I thought had been covered as I read through the two base books—which do not split material into player/game master stuff, but mostly PC creation and "everything else, including some stuff you wish you'd known while creating your PC".

Speaking of character creation, it's a mix of package-deal classes, questionnaire-based "customization" via a few either/or choices, and a random roll or two just for good measure. I'm not a fan of any of those methods of character creation and the particular combination here, along with the winding prose, made this process not at all fun for me. The game seems to assume a party of three as the baseline, and there's no way to cover all the bases with only three characters—which does perhaps fit back into the tone they're going for!

Gameplay is interesting. The rules are difficult to learn, but once you have a grasp of them, they do work. But they are always front and center, standing in between me and the unfolding drama/action, as we go from the description of the situation, to determining which currencies we have in what amounts and how to combine them to deal mechanically with the situation. The agony of small and dwindling inventories is cool; the agony of calculating how many points of this currency feed into that currency is more like bookkeeping (which is funny because in most games I've played, players hate tracking inventory/supplies but don't mind tracking hit points and spell slots and such!). It's nowhere near as smooth as Apocalypse world or Blades in the Dark, where the rules do their best to keep things moving along—any delays are usually due to player dithering on position & desired effect.

Skill tests are cool. I can see some traditional players not being happy with "fail" not meaning, well, failure, and I'm still adjusting my gut reaction to the term in play. But it's really neat that you can fail the test and still get what you want, but also get something you don't want, rather than merely whiffing, which I've always felt is boring (which I also like about Apocalypse World & Blades in the Dark). Scrambling for more dice to boost your roll is fun, but again there are too many fiddly different ways of doing that.

I like the advancement system, in spite of its exceptions. It makes sense that you get better at something after some number of both successes and "failures".

I found the conflict rules utterly confounding at first. They simply don't make sense to me and occupy this weird Tunnels & Trolls space of "throw some points around", but in a way more complicated manner. Again, as I become more familiar with the process, it's going a little more smoothly, but it's definitely an odd beast of a system compared to those I'm familiar with. (God help the people in the simulation thread if they were to try it.) Planning actions and then revealing them for resolution is interesting, and captures some of that feel of "no plan survives first contact".

I gotta run soon, I'll try to write more later.