D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

GNS theory is, at best, a lens for critically analyzing games. One can examine a game under this lens and identify how it’s mechanics serve or detract from a certain play agenda, and that might be useful, especially if your play preferences closely align with one of the three that the model is concerned with. But not all play preferences fit neatly into one of those three categories, and most games are not specifically designed to serve one of those agendas in particular. Labeling D&D as a “simulationist” or “gameist” game, or a particular mechanic as inherently “simulationist” or “gamist” is, in my opinion, nonsense. What the model is good for is giving one a framework with which to identify one’s goals of play, and figuring out if a mechanic or game serves those goals well or not.
 

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Word to that. One of the first things I realized about RPGs when my brother and I had a few of them was how clear the impact of system was. Same group, same GM, different system, different behaviour - especially after a few sessions of the system reinforcing/discouraging approaches which might be natural in another system.

Then we got on the internet and back then, in like 1993, half the people talking about RPGs were absolutely lunatic hardliners that system does not, in fact, matter.

They slowly died out before a revival in the 2000s with the d20 era, which had a ton of people trying to claim system didn't matter so you should be using d20 for everything (good grief). Then it died out again, before making another comeback more recently, where 5E hyperfans (including those who deny being such) are just repeating the rhetoric of the early 2000s.
As Devil's advocate, we could argue that over the last decade it has been shown more that principles, and not system, matter.
 

GNS theory is, at best, a lens for critically analyzing games. One can examine a game under this lens and identify how it’s mechanics serve or detract from a certain play agenda, and that might be useful, especially if your play preferences closely align with one of the three that the model is concerned with. But not all play preferences fit neatly into one of those three categories, and most games are not specifically designed to serve one of those agendas in particular. Labeling D&D as a “simulationist” or “gameist” game, or a particular mechanic as inherently “simulationist” or “gamist” is, in my opinion, nonsense. What the model is good for is giving one a framework with which to identify one’s goals of play, and figuring out if a mechanic or game serves those goals well or not.
I'm very sympathetic to an argument that says it applies to players better than game systems. I would add that "figuring out" also includes deciding how to interpret... where to put focus.
 

I think modern D&D is somewhat confused on this matter. It provides an excessive wealth of gamist tools to players and then like expects them not to use them too much. It talks about consistent worlds, challenge and story in the same breath. I'm not sure it's a game that knows what it wants to be. This is evident how different permutations of modern D&D have been from one another (D&D 3e, PF1, 4e, 5e, PF2). Each strikes different chords, but still seems to be fairly confused about how they should be run and how they should be played.
And this is one of the big critiques I have of the model. Because D&D has tools that serve a “gameist” agenda, advises DMs to create consistent worlds, and advertises itself as a game of collaborative storytelling, it looks “incoherent” under the GNS lens. And yet, the game must be doing something right.

I don’t think “coherence” really matters all that much. Most games aren’t designed to “coherently” serve one of those three narrowly defined agendas. Most games are just designed to be fun for the people who designed them and tweaked to address issues discovered in playtesting. And that works because most players don’t have a “coherent” play agenda. They just have a hodgepodge of likes and dislikes that a game might or might not serve. D&D tries to do a lot of things so that all sorts of different players can find things they like in it, and then makes it easy to ignore the things you don’t like.
 

And this is one of the big critiques I have of the model. Because D&D has tools that serve a “gameist” agenda, advises DMs to create consistent worlds, and advertises itself as a game of collaborative storytelling, it looks “incoherent” under the GNS lens. And yet, the game must be doing something right.

I don’t think “coherence” really matters all that much. Most games aren’t designed to “coherently” serve one of those three narrowly defined agendas. Most games are just designed to be fun for the people who designed them and tweaked to address issues discovered in playtesting. And that works because most players don’t have a “coherent” play agenda. They just have a hodgepodge of likes and dislikes that a game might or might not serve. D&D tries to do a lot of things so that all sorts of different players can find things they like in it, and then makes it easy to ignore the things you don’t like.
I think there's an interesting note to go here. Look at the types of complaints about D&D in threads here -- the ones seeking help or offering a change or evaluating a change. They almost always go in one of two directions: 1) D&D doesn't makes sense here, so here's how I address it with rules that make more sense; and 2) Here's how I approach D&D with a clearly stated and consistent system of adjudications and structure so that the system works very well as presented and I seem to be avoiding the problems from 1.

This broadly maps to 1) being a desire for more simulationism but being stymied by the way the rules do not provide it (which makes sense, most of the D&D rules aren't about providing simulationist agendas), while 2) involved embracing the gamist nature of the system and avoiding conflicts between that gamism and any simulationist desire by not trying to use the system for such things and sticking to what it's good at. I'd place Iserith in the latter camp and anyone arguing the daily encounter budget doesn't make sense and/or rests/hp are nonsensical in the first camp.

It's certainly not perfect, but the critical lens does offer some insight into what appears to be the largest driver of dissatisfaction in the system - that D&D isn't really that simulationist at all but (many) people want it to be.
 

I think there's an interesting note to go here. Look at the types of complaints about D&D in threads here -- the ones seeking help or offering a change or evaluating a change. They almost always go in one of two directions: 1) D&D doesn't makes sense here, so here's how I address it with rules that make more sense; and 2) Here's how I approach D&D with a clearly stated and consistent system of adjudications and structure so that the system works very well as presented and I seem to be avoiding the problems from 1.

This broadly maps to 1) being a desire for more simulationism but being stymied by the way the rules do not provide it (which makes sense, most of the D&D rules aren't about providing simulationist agendas), while 2) involved embracing the gamist nature of the system and avoiding conflicts between that gamism and any simulationist desire by not trying to use the system for such things and sticking to what it's good at. I'd place Iserith in the latter camp and anyone arguing the daily encounter budget doesn't make sense and/or rests/hp are nonsensical in the first camp.

It's certainly not perfect, but the critical lens does offer some insight into what appears to be the largest driver of dissatisfaction in the system - that D&D isn't really that simulationist at all but (many) people want it to be.
For sure! I’m not trying to argue that the model is useless. As I say, I think it can be useful as a lens for critical analysis, which is what it seems you’re doing here. This could help one identify why a particular mechanic isn’t working for someone in group 1, or to contextualize what group 2 is doing that’s working for them and maybe help one decide if group 2’s approach might work for them. What I don’t think it’s useful for is calling this or that game “a simulationist game” or this or that mechanic “a gamist mechanic.”
 

So, before I give a real answer: My understandings of these terms may not 100% conform to everyone else's. I have tried to be relatively well-read on the subject, but I often fall short. So, if something seems to make no sense because of a conflict between the articulated meaning of these things in other spaces and the things I'm saying, assume that I have simply used the term idiosyncratically and ask for clarification with whatever specificity you can muster.

With that disclaimer out of the way....

For me, gamism in a design sense means asking, "What kind of game is D&D, as in, what is the nature of engaging with the rules of this game? What purposes are those rules supposed to fulfill? What goals must be met, in order for those purposes to be fulfilled? And, finally, how can we set testable goals so that we can evaluate whether those purposes are, in fact, fulfilled (up to some reasonable standard)?"

From the top: THE critical trait of D&D is, it's cooperative.[0] Players aren't competing, but collaborating toward group success. But "success" =/= "winning," in the sense of terminating play with a victor; rather, it's overcoming challenges as they come, though making failure also interesting gameplay is a desirable thing too. This cooperative nature implies a great deal. Frex, unless specified otherwise, each player should get (approximately) equal opportunity to push toward group success. That IS NOT identical abilities, nor perfect equality (an unattainable and often undesirable goal). What it means is that, up to some reasonble range, for the bulk of tables and situations, each player can meaningfully contribute to any interesting challenge, and each player can point to something specific they did to make success more likely (even if some contributions are less flashy than others). Teammates should, over some generally applicable span of in-game time, have highly comparable "amounts" of contribution. For D&D, that span is the "day," both because that's how magic usually recharges (and most classes are magical), and because the "day" is the only period respected by a broad swathe of groups.[1]

That covers D&D as a cooperative game, but what about D&D as a cooperative game? A game is something with rules, rules that can be learned, perhaps even "mastered." A game, as noted above, need not have a termination condition, e.g. it need not have some condition under which the play-sequence ceases (whether or not a victor is declared) and then begins anew, but it should have some kind of success conditions, e.g. it is possible to play "better" or "worse" in some meaningful sense. In order for the player to learn how to play better, they must be (a) able to make (sufficiently) informed choices, and (b) (sufficiently) responsible for the consequences that result from those choices; ideally, they should also (c) have (sufficient) time and opportunity to learn from a simple mistake before there are such severe consequences that the play-sequence ceases for them. This is why I take so seriously things like player agency, information consistency, choices, and as close as possible to a direct (unmediated) connection between what the player chose to do and what resulted.

From there, we can start considering what purposes the game is supposed to serve. Roleplay is, of course, a purpose of primary concern. However, beyond setting elements, rules do not (generally) directly contribute overmuch to worldbuilding. It isn't that they can't (though some have accused me of saying this), but rather that putting too much emphasis on rules-as-worldbuilding will often be excessively restrictive to what can be achieved within the fiction space. So, while this purpose must be kept in mind at all times while designing the rules, in a sense it more serves to shape and hone the rules crafted for the other purposes, rather than being a purpose for which rules should be created.[2]

A second purpose is to explore a world and seek adventure within it. This gives us a host of useful things we can talk about in design-goal terms. For exploration to be a meaningful part of gameplay, there must be challenges associated with exploration, which are non-trivial to overcome. This is an area where D&D often falls down, as the challenges associated with exploration are often either obtuse to the point of being nearly insoluble without mind-reading, or simple to the point of triviality because a single spell or ability will wish the problem away. This is why I value the Skill Challenge rules from 4e, even if they were flawed and needed...wise handling, shall we say, to truly shine. Because the Skill Challenge framework presents the possibility of exploration challenges that are necessarily non-trivial, and which should not be obviated solely by throwing a single spell or ability at them. On the "seek adventure" side of things, this entails both worldbuilding concepts (which, as noted, are somewhat outside the remit of this discussion, as I see it) and design goals, specifically making adventure a worthwhile pursuit. One of the common problems with a lot of games--not just D&D--is that many of them, in their effort to pursue maximal naturalism and verisimilitude, create games where it's hard to understand why anyone would choose to adventure in them.[3]

A further purpose comes to us directly from the fact that the game is cooperative: the rules of D&D should be designed such that teamwork is always important. This was one of the weakest aspects of 3e's rules, despite rarely getting much discussion: the best strategy in 3e is always to optimize your own personal contribution, not to synergize with your team. But D&D is pretty clearly centered on a team of adventurers who are supposed to depend on one another, not just being four/five adventurers who purely coincidentally adventure in the same places at the same times. This gives us further testable goals, because we can measure the effectiveness of groups that avoid teamwork vs ones that actively collaborate, and if the current rules are not rewarding teamwork enough, they can be tweaked to change that.

This post has already gotten quite long so I'm going to stop there. But, as I hope this has demonstrated, this process of design gives us a significant number of clear design goals, which we can develop metrics to test, and then perform actual, meaningful statistical analysis on playtest data to confirm whether those goals are being met. However, before I finish here, I want to reiterate:

This is about designing D&D as a game, not about filling it with awesome lore and concepts.

I am absolutely, positively, 110% in favor of excellent, interesting, rich lore. My favorite mechanics are those that drip with story potential or, in the ideal cases, where using the mechanic MEANS you're invoking a trope or a story or a feeling--where the line between "playing the game by its rules" and "telling a cool story together" blurs. That sort of thing is difficult, but it is absolutely, positively WORTH DOING, every single time. The main problem is, literally none of these things is meaningfully testable, other than asking whether players approve of it or not, which is...rather weak as far as analysis goes. Instead, this sort of thing has to be carefully crafted. Ideally, you work to make sure that where the rules lead the fiction, what fiction they lead to is great, and where the fiction leads the rules, the rules that spawn from that fiction are highly effective, excellently fulfilling the purpose for which they were designed.[4]

[0] I know this wasn't always the case. I consider that irrelevant to modern D&D, which is almost always purely or nearly purely cooperative.

[1] This is why 4e used the "5 min short rest, extended rest is a full refresh for all" structure. 5e's designers have learned that it's a lot harder to make a more-intricate resource system that doesn't start to fall apart if the players don't match your expected expenditure and refresh rates...which is exactly what happened with 5e.

[2] This, to me, is where the "the rules should just get out of the way" doctrine properly applies. Roleplay is, necessarily, something difficult to confine without straight-up telling players what their characters think or feel, and I find that a dangerous line to cross. It risks denying player agency, which, as noted, I am very reluctant to do.

[3] Hence my deep and abiding confusion when people complain about 4e's Points of Light setting as having been "designed to play in." Like...that's the point. You don't make a setting for a game that isn't designed to be played in. There may certainly be locations that aren't adventurable. Those locations, by definition, are not of interest to adventurers, and "adventurers" is literally what D&D is offering to let you play.

[4] Since these terms may have confused other posters in the past: when I say "the rules lead the fiction," what I mean is that the designer makes a rule, and then determines what fictional consequences or implications those rules have. The rules lead to creating fiction. Conversely, when "the fiction leads the rules," the designer has committed to fictional elements of some kind, and then works to develop rules which permit or support those fictional elements. The fiction leads to creating rules. D&D is full of examples of both things. E.g., 4e's Avenger strikes me (heh) as an example of fiction leading rules, as the concept of Investiture implied the need for divine "internal police." Conversely, I think the 4e Lay on Hands, which is very cool IMO, was rules leading fiction, because the existence of the Healing Surge rules led to a natural fiction of "I give of myself, to replenish you," which I love.
 

For sure! I’m not trying to argue that the model is useless. As I say, I think it can be useful as a lens for critical analysis, which is what it seems you’re doing here. This could help one identify why a particular mechanic isn’t working for someone in group 1, or to contextualize what group 2 is doing that’s working for them and maybe help one decide if group 2’s approach might work for them. What I don’t think it’s useful for is calling this or that game “a simulationist game” or this or that mechanic “a gamist mechanic.”
This aligns to my thinking.

I think a another model for analysis is to look at authority structures in the game. Who has it when, can it be passed and how so, what can you do with it?
 

I'm probably pretty much in agreement with you on that, although I am sympathetic to other lenses.
Usually when discussing D&D, I prefer the terms identified by Six Cultures of Play. They seem to resonate better with those who are playing in those styles, they actually have something to say about how people actually play D&D, and Forge terminology has some baggage when trying to discuss D&D.

I've read many of the the GNS and Edwards essays, and some of Mary Kuhner and John Kim's preceding conversation on GDS, and Scarlet Jester's essay on GEN. To me the latter has the greatest clarity. Right to Dream conflates simulationist and immersionist urges, which are very distinct. Step on up fails to capture creative and cooperative uges that often have nothing to do with challenge. Story Now is perhaps the only one that works, perhaps because it arises from Edwards' strongest intutions. Even there, it is conflated with techniques that are better seen as supportive but not required.
I can understand the logic for grouping Purist for System and High Concept together. They’re both kinds of simulations, but that’s about all they have in common. Things you would do in one wouldn’t be appropriate in the other. Look at the kind of responses one engenders for suggesting, e.g., that encumbrance mechanics should have teeth. You’re guaranteed to get at least a few responses that you should do what is best for the story, which is a very trad (i.e., High Concept) concern.
 

I think modern D&D is somewhat confused on this matter. It provides an excessive wealth of gamist tools to players and then like expects them not to use them too much. It talks about consistent worlds, challenge and story in the same breath. I'm not sure it's a game that knows what it wants to be. This is evident how different permutations of modern D&D have been from one another (D&D 3e, PF1, 4e, 5e, PF2). Each strikes different chords, but still seems to be fairly confused about how they should be run and how they should be played.
I look at it this way: trad D&D is a simulation of D&D. The particular elements are there because they’ve always been there, and they’re important for creating the feel of playing D&D. If you replace or change those elements, then the game stops feeling like D&D. That’s also why rule zero is so important. It’s the mechanism that prevents the gamist elements from getting in the way of the group’s actual creative agenda.
 

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