D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[EzekielRaiden]

Yeah, okay, sorry, I'm done.

When people keep straight-up telling me that what I'm asking for isn't what I'm asking for, and that they can oh-so-clearly see that what I'm really asking for is something I've explicitly rejected multiple times, there is no further discussion to be had. When people can avoid strawmanning me and stop putting words in my mouth literally in response to posts where I reject those words, perhaps it will be worth participating again. Until then, I value my sanity too much for that.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

The big problem there is that it's not official, and in my experience, 5e DMs are so completely opposed to the use of non-official rules (proposed by players, that is; DM non-official rules are The Best Thing Ever™, natch) that 75% of the time it isn't even worth the time to ask for them, and the remaining 25% of the time they'll say they'll think about it, and may on rare occasions actually do so, but they'll never actually approve it.

Have you considered running Level Up as the DM?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Have you considered running Level Up as the DM?

No. I have no interest in DMing 5e, homebrew or otherwise. Were I to actually run an edition of D&D, it would be 4e. (Or maybe, if you count it as "D&D," 13th Age.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, okay, sorry, I'm done.

When people keep straight-up telling me that what I'm asking for isn't what I'm asking for, and that they can oh-so-clearly see that what I'm really asking for is something I've explicitly rejected multiple times, there is no further discussion to be had. When people can avoid strawmanning me and stop putting words in my mouth literally in response to posts where I reject those words, perhaps it will be worth participating again. Until then, I value my sanity too much for that.

Perhaps you should actually give an actual example of what sort of design you want to see? I am not trying to misinterpret you, I'm trying to interpret your position the best I can, but to me it seems incoherent.

Like if your paladin is haggling with a merchant, what sort of feature should the paladin have (other than skills that anyone can have) so that their class can affect their competence, whilst not simultaneously not making them good at the social pillar? (As you don't want characters to be "good at everything.")

 

[Helldritch]

Ho boy....
This has been going on for decades. Martials want to be as powerful as the casters and casters want to be as resilient as the martial while the rogues want a bit of both.

1ed had a good balance in that balance was not in the class but in the levels. A 1st level wizard was pretty much a daily one shot sleep spell and needed the full protection of the martial. At high level the wizard was able to boost the efficiency of the martials and was the power house of the group. But, the wizard had so low hp, that a 12th level fighter could kill that same 20th level wizard in one round. Spells were easily disruptable if the wizard was attacked while casting and fast acting rogues were often the ones to do it. Monsters were generally either protected with high HP or high AC and the most fearsomes had both.

2ed did a bit of a clean up of the rules but was essentially an edition made to appeal to the angry mothers concerned about the satanic panic. A sanitized version, sort of.

3.xed was the edition where martials were supposed to be the stars but ended up a true casters' dream with the enablement of the CODZILLA. Casters were a bit more resilient at no costs in power. It was even harder to disrupt spell casting with the new feats. This brought some displeasure in the martial side of things as now, the casters were no longer squishy and at high levels, they were even stronger than before.

This led us to 4ed where all characters were on an even footing. While 4ed had great rules, the blandness of classes differentiation was ultimately its downfall.

And now we have 5ed. Casters complains that their power has been downgraded way to much, martials complain that their powers are still to low comparing to the casters... And both are right. With so many HPs, a caster can no longer be killed easily by a martial and some casters can be even better in hand to hand than some martials (hexblades anyone?).

The main complain now seems to be that sometimes a character is left with nothing to do depending on pillar currently being played at the table. 5ed is not perfect, but I really think that the balance of martials vs casters vs explorers vs social has been somewhat reached. The social is a bit lacking but in much better shape than the exploration which can be easily bypassed at higher level and even mid level with a good ranger... which is a shame, a ranger's abilities should ease the exploration pillar, not bypass it.

Balance is a delicate thing. Casters mourn at the powerloss but forgets that they now have better HP. Martials gained little and now feel that casters are now even better off with higher HP but forget that the same casters lost a lot in powers, especially at high levels.

Balance is both a good and a bad thing. Not enough and some classes will not be played. Too much and all classes are the same. Disparity in a game is what makes the game interesting. It forces players to think outside the box to get things done when they lack a certain skill or power.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

MCU Cap is far stronger than a peak human. But yeah, not near Thor or Hulk level and those probably should be able to tear him apart.

I was talking about the comics not the MCU... but okay Black Widow and Hawkeye are not even peak then if you want to go with MCU

And if I were to roleplay a superhuman, I would actually want to know the capabilities of my character. Not just some numbers, but what it actually roughly means in real terms. I can't immerse or make informed decisions in-character otherwise.

yeah...your inability to suspend your disbelief is very apparent

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So you just want the characters to be all-capable superheroes that always win with ease?

nope... no one asks for winning with ease... we ask for players to win more often to lose, for death to always be possible, but rare, and for all the characters to have similar if not exactly the same power levels...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why do you think all those people did that though? That's an awful big group to form that opinion (enough to make WotC doubt the editions success) to come out of nowhere. Something in 4th ed led people to feel that way, even if it wasn't true.

internet memes... you see that with cinema sins... you know what never mind, I give up, 4e must be all the same no matter that it was more successful then 3rd, and would never have needed to be updated if WotC didn't decided it could take more of piazo money.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And yet, M&M does have Power Levels, and Batman and Superman aren't on the same one.

you can play a paragon (superman) and a Vigilante (batman) at any power level.

I know this because we have played such games at power level 8 (yes 2 lower then the base starting)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I like the versions from the original films and Smallville, with a bit of the Animated Series thrown in. My Batman is almost entirely from BAS.

the animate superman/batman from 90's might just be the best version... smallville was okay but I think it could have been better.