D&D 5E 5e* - D&D-now

I don't think there's much of the BW Wises thing in Torchbearer, at least as written.

But the GM-side rules distinguish between saying That's a Good Idea (ie say yes because it sounds plausible/clever) and calling for a check. From the Scholar's Guide, p 216:

If you think the players have come up with a smart use of their gear, spells or even bodies—then there is no need to roll the dice or test, no need to spend a check and it doesn’t cost a turn. Simply say to them, “That’s a good idea,” then describe the effect of their action. It’s as if they passed a test without rolling dice or taking a turn (though they don’t get advances from it)."​

So there is a trade-off between (i) avoiding the advance of the grind and avoiding the risk of a twist or condition, and (ii) earning a passed or failed test towards advancement.

Another illustration of how particular techniques in a RPG open up bigger possibilities. Because 5e D&D doesn't link checks to advancement, and doesn't have a systematic way for establishing costs of making and/or failing a check, there is no basis for setting up this sort of trade-off.
IMHO even more profoundly, 5e lacks any idea of what a check MEANS, even mechanically (outside of combat)! In TB2 if you pass a test, the turn count advances (the Grind), and you mark off success, and you have achieved the fictional intent of your action. It isn't even clear in 5e that you achieved anything, a GM could rule that you have to make 9 more climb checks to reach the top of the cliff. He could simply keep asking for more of them and not even set a definite number that generates overall success. That, in my mind, is really the fatal weakness of 5e as a Story Game. There simply is no 'valence' for actions. In the other thread which spawned this one @clearstream and @Manbearcat wrestled for many pages on this point. It is really KEY. 5e doesn't even really TALK about intent at all. Its resolution systems are fundamentally rooted in GM interpretation of a fiction that is already entirely generated BY the GM.
 

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And just to remind ourselves


I think you are not resting your case upon the presence of a stochastic method for choosing between outcomes, because you say


Thus you are making an assumption that in C* making a call is unfettered. It's not shaped and directed. But C* admonishes DM - "don't decide in a way that doesn't accord with your principles." Therefore DM may very well make their call according to general principles applied to concrete states of affairs - such as pre-established fiction / foregoing conversation - and it will be shaped and directed.

The second part of what you say could seem to reintroduce doubt on that score. [That is, doubt on the possibility of finding anything out when arbitrating by principles rather than roll.]


It might help to have in mind Alan Calhamer's Diplomacy here. According to what you say, as France I can't learn what happens next, because I decide exactly what moves I will be making. There's no uncertainty in outcomes in Diplomacy: among players all things are decided. And yet, everyone at the table - including France - is surprised when they learn what happens next. There is the possibility that a C* DM is following a principle of play as a form of negotiation, in which their moves will only be settled in full consideration of the moves of the players.

It should be obvious - and maybe it is - but what counts is that all participants can add things to the conversation, and that what they add must follow [the implication is a principled negotiation]. The adding itself can be an asymmetrical negotiation between them, but it's not asymmetrical in power, it is asymmetrical in scope. There is a lusory attitude required to bring an honesty or clarity to this. What should happen when the arch-cat Gog attempts to stalk the hellhound Hemlock? Well, in our prior fiction we learned that... and so... but what about... in that case I'll... and everyone learns what happens next. If one should have doubts, it should be doubt that DM ever gets to make calls due to uncertainty in C*, rather than that making such calls will somehow invalidate playing to find out.
Well, assuming some certain set of principles, perhaps. However I think you are laying a lot on the doorstep of 'principles' here. A LOT of that is going to take construction of some sort of PROCESS in order to reliably reach consensus. That process is rules, and probably mechanics, not just abstract guiding principles. If a technique is always needed in a game of C* in order to progress in an orderly fashion, then I'd call that technique a part of the game, mechanically. Since your C* example doesn't specify any of this, it is not actually possible to draw any conclusions from it about how actual games work. Even if we tried to play this example game simply "as stated" we would minimally have to add something like "The GM always gets to decide what actually gets put in the fiction when there is any doubt." or something like that (it could be a player, a vote, etc. that decides, in most real RPGs it is just done with some dice).
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Upthread I quoted two formulations of the Lumpley Principle:

[N]othing happens, in the fiction of role-playing, unless someone says it and it's heard by others. . . . Whatever mechanics you use, you are agreeing to use them among the group, usually as a creative inspiration or constraint, specifically as a way to affect what is going to be said.​
System (including but not limited to 'the rules') is defined as the means by which the group agrees to imagined events during play.​

The second of those two formulations is not equivalent (either abstractly, or in its reference) to system is anything leading to agreement about imagined events in play.
Means: An action or system by which a result is achieved; a method. System: The means [method] by which [that results in] the group agrees to imagined events during play. Including by means [methods] other than rules.

"Whatever mechanics you use, you are agreeing to use them." The action that achieves the result of agreeing to use the mechanics, is agreeing to use the game text as part of entering the magic circle. Predicated upon such agreement, the rules lay out the terms: the play that is afforded. It is for the sake of that play that participants enter into the agreement.

My reading then is that the LP emphasises the "social level of roleplaying" and I am directing thought onward to the terms being agreed to - rules and mechanics - for their consequences on play. Play isn't experienced as a continuous cycle of doubt and reluctant agreement, it is sustained by a lusory attitude; where agreement is a prior given, and what is of current interest is what the terms we've signed up for enable us to do. This gives constitutive rules their place. The LP is a vital principle, but it is not sufficient to explain RPG design and RPG play.

Here are some things that help lead to agreement about imagined events but are (typically) not among the means by which a group secures such agreement, and hence are not elements of system: familiarity with one another; easy-going dispositions; common cultural background which supports shared patterns of thinking about how particular stories "should" go on; shared assumptions about who "should" own what elements of the fiction.
I feel forced to reject the putative distinction you claim exists between 'helping to lead to a result', and being among 'methods by which a result is achieved'; but understanding shouldn't come down to struggles with the words themselves. What you might be trying to get at is explained here:

"some people view the LP expansively in a way that turns System into a combination of the Social Contract and Exploration levels of the Big Model. Social context and implicit influences are part of System. I call this "LP-maximalism."
"Against these views, there's the idea that the System only consists of the procedures (Techniques) evidenced in actual game play actions (Ephemera)"

Because you say that
The point of the first formulation is to stress that RPG rules are not self-actualising. They must be taken up and applied in a social context. (This is sometimes expressed via a shorthand like "social contract is prior to system".)

The point of the second formulation is to stress that system, in RPGing, includes elements that go beyond the things standardly presented as action resolution mechanics. It includes principles that constrain narration; allocations of ownership to elements of the fiction (these might be seen as a special case of principles that constrain narration - go to town in your narration if it's a bit that you own, but otherwise maybe dial it back a bit); rules or principles that govern turn-taking; etc.
You include some elements that are not rules, and in order to say what those are rather than leave them hopelessly unbounded, perhaps you can say that they're just the procedures evidenced in the actual game play actions. Does that sound right?

"I will not deny that choosing this definition of 'system' has a certain ideological background - when it was proposed, it was probably a powerful rhetorical weapon against people who thought that the social level of roleplaying was not the concern of game designers. But that ideology is not part of the analytic content of the principle. As behooves a definition, the analytic content of the principle is zero."
What I am pointing out instead is that you can never situate agreement to a rule, in that rule. For the rule to have authority, you have to enact or accept it: put it in force for yourself. Take this rule:

Rule 0: Agree with what @clearstream says.
Agreement to rule 0 cannot exist within the rule itself. You'll only agree with what I say, if first of all you agree to put rule 0 in force for yourself. As the quote above puts it, what was powerful is the reminding that the social level is a vital concern. Not that each separate procedure is part of a means of agreement. The right way to put it is that the separate procedures are enabled by agreement. The risk the LP identifies is that a designer can't forget that their rules are dependent on that prior agreement. They need to write rules that are appealing to agree to, because that's the point: we agree to them for the sake of what they enable us to do.

[To make this even clearer, consider - Rule 1: Agree to rule 0. - Even though rule 1 seems to be about securing agreement to rule 0, it does nothing without an earlier agreement that is decided externally to it. It cannot stand alone as the 'means' by which we agree to rule 0: something else is always needed.]

Rule Starry Form: As a bonus action, you can expend a use of your Wild Shape feature to take on a starry form, rather than transforming into a beast. While in your starry form, you retain your game statistics, but your body becomes luminous; your joints glimmer like stars, and glowing lines connect them as on a star chart. This form sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. The form lasts for 10 minutes. It ends early if you dismiss it (no action required), are incapacitated, die, or use this feature again.
Starry form isn't a method of reaching agreement, it's the terms we put in force for ourselves upon agreeing to use the Circle of Stars rules from TCoE. The LP reminds us that - as you say - the rules aren't self-actuating. Something has to happen - agreement to put them in force for ourselves. That's why I lean toward a maximalist interpretation - and that isn't limited or forestalled by other intents or interpretations.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
Well, assuming some certain set of principles, perhaps. However I think you are laying a lot on the doorstep of 'principles' here. A LOT of that is going to take construction of some sort of PROCESS in order to reliably reach consensus. That process is rules, and probably mechanics, not just abstract guiding principles. If a technique is always needed in a game of C* in order to progress in an orderly fashion, then I'd call that technique a part of the game, mechanically. Since your C* example doesn't specify any of this, it is not actually possible to draw any conclusions from it about how actual games work. Even if we tried to play this example game simply "as stated" we would minimally have to add something like "The GM always gets to decide what actually gets put in the fiction when there is any doubt." or something like that (it could be a player, a vote, etc. that decides, in most real RPGs it is just done with some dice).
So what I meant by the question about which is larger above, is to say that the power players have and the power DM has are equal, even where their scopes are different. Although one might suppose the game-world to be vast and player-characters to be small, in fiction they're far nearer to the same size. One way to measure that is count up what is added to the conversation. Another is to observe that DM prep is contingent - it can burn - while player-character prep is concrete.

It may seem like a non-sequitur, but one should ask of what you write in the piece quoted, what you make of the apparent irony in the focus on written game mechanics, for a mode that is intended to put fiction first? I don't think we should be arguing that the fewer mechanics we have, the less able we must be to put fiction first. I know that is not what you are saying, and I roughly agree with you that desirably the technique should be made part of the text. (It's part of the game as soon as it influences the game, but I think you mean the game text.)

The 5e designers were denied this option. Due to the commercial motivation of broadest appeal, they couldn't enforce any one mode of play in their text.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Well, that's a couple anyway. Sorry to go on. It is a big thing for me, though, that there are systems in there, even if they are unspoken and little understood.
Here I read that she is attributing freeform play with systems, which is interesting in its own right, but I want to address fictional positioning.

Here, Emily's talking about the player's position: what gameplay options do I, as a player, have available to me right now? Over the course of the game, my legitimate moves change; what are my legitimate moves at this moment of play?
In freeform games, Emily says, what determines your selection of available legitimate moves is the current state of the fictional stuff in the game. If there's a gun in your character's hand, that adds certain moves to the selection available to you, the player. If there's a gun in someone else's character's hand, that changes the likely outcomes of the moves you might make.​
Recall that I want my construct for fictional positioning to be predictive. It predicts the moves characters will make.

(For now, let's politely pretend that making a move in a roleplaying game means asserting something, like "my guy shoots yours," and subjecting it to the group's assent or dissent to determine its actual in-game veracity. I think this is not true, but it makes it easier for now.)
Politely pretending, while noticing that what is described never happens. We never subject moves to groups assent or dissent, rather players submit moves that follow the conversation. They only say what they believe will be assented to. Rarely, they say something that prompts dissent, which occasionally crashes them out of the magic circle.

Contrast freeform with cue-mediation. The freeform rule at play here is "if you've established that your character is holding a gun, all other things being equal, it's a legitimate move to assert that your character fires it at someone." The equivalent cue-mediated rule would be "if you have a gun on your character sheet, all other things being equal, it's a legitimate move to assert that your character fires it at someone." See the difference? Playing freeform, we look into the fiction-as-established to determine whether a possible move is legitimate; playing with cues, we look over at the cue to determine whether it is.
This doesn't match experience. It's a simplification. That may be all we need here.

Given that D&D is cue-laden, many of the legitimate moves that a player can make will follow not from fictional position but from the state of the cues ("cue position"). For instance, whether my PC is conscious or unconscious is typically not an element of fictional position but rather follows from the fact that my hp tally is greater than zero. Attack reach, in contemporary D&D, is likewise typically a matter of cues and not fictional position (contrast Dungeon World, or some approaches to AD&D).

The "typically" in my previous sentence sits in the same conceptual space as Baker's "all other things being equal":

In a given game design or game in play, freeform and cue-mediation can happily coexist. You see where I included "all other things being equal" in both rules? Often in practice that includes a quick check across the boundary between them. Like when you have a pistol on your character sheet, but in the fiction as established your character's just stepping out of the shower, right?​

As far as everything a player is motivated to say, that does not seem to be part of position at all. Rather, and as Emily Care Boss explains, it is motivation that drives positioning: ie because I want the fiction to include such-and-such a thing (say, my PC isn't killed by the giant), then I have a motivation to establish an appropriate position that will enable me to avoid that outcome, be that a fictional position (eg I'm hidden from the giant) or a cue position (eg I've got a sword of giant-slaying on my PC's gear list). Of course my current position might constrain my possibilities of further positions (eg fiction like I've just encountered a giant on an open plain or a cue record like I'm subjected to paralysation). But I don't see how motivated action declarations are themselves part of position (fictional or cue).
I have two concerns in mind here. First, I don't observe motivation in play as Newtonian, a force that is applied once to a character in a vacuum, who is propelled onward imperturbably from there. Rather, motivations are continuously being formed, revised, and applied. They are layered from overarching to immediate, and hold differing priorities for action. Second, it wouldn't matter if motivation was Newtonian: it must still be counted in fictional positioning.

if I want to shoot your character with a gun, I have to first establish that there is a gun present,
Think this through in a few different ways. First without motivation. I don't want to shoot you with a gun. Say there is nevertheless a gun present because we're in an armory. A gun is therefore squarely within the legitimate moves, but it's not one that will enter the fiction. If it did, it would feel jarring to all concerned. Dem was strictly unmotivated to shoot Jo with a gun, but Dem shot Jo with a gun. After the fact, everyone would most likely try to impute a motivation for the shooting to Dem.

If I want to kill your character, I will have to establish, and get others to collaborate with me in establishing, that my character can keep yours from escaping, that mine has the ability to successfully shoot yours, that help will not arrive in time etc.
Say Jo tries to escape as imagined here. If Dem is unmotivated, Dem doesn't try to keep Jo from escaping even though that would be a legitimate move. I can't stress this enough - there are at any time a vast number of legitimate moves. Dem could have hopped on one foot. That would be a legitimate move (were motivation not at issue.)

Those moves a character has motivations in connection with, form the subset from which they choose what they say next. Unmotivated moves aren't in that subset. It's meaningless to talk about the vast number of legitimate moves that have nothing to do with what's going on. Hopping on one foot might be an example (there's probably cases where it isn't).

And those motivations change all the time. Say Dem is threatened by Jo and about to run (motivated to escape), when as a result of "looking around desperately" she spots a loaded six-shooter. She snatches it up and forms a new motivation - the shoe is on the other foot - "right Jo, tell me who's behind the plot to..." and so on. Motivations are continuously added to and altered.

Baker touches on effectiveness here

1. Positioning:
A player's position is the total set of all of the legitimate gameplay options available to her at this moment of play. Positioning refers to the various factors and processes, including in-fiction, cue-mediated, and interpersonal, that determine a player's position.
The "various factors" here could be taken to include motivation. If that's right, great!

2. Positioning & Effectiveness:
Positioning establishes (proactively or retroactively) the legitimacy of the group's various moves.
Effectiveness establishes (proactively or retroactively) the outcomes of the group's various moves.
Both positioning and effectiveness include who-knows-how-many factors, some in the form of cues, some interpersonal, some purely fictional.
There are cause-and-effect relationships between the many various factors, some formal, cue-mediated, "mechanical," some purely interpersonal.

Now, I'm not saying that Baker intended effectiveness to be included in fictional positioning here, but seeing as I want a construct that has predictive power, I'm forced to bring effectiveness into fictional positioning (under the broader umbrella of 'motivation') Players are motivated toward doing the more effective over the less effective, but other motivations can prove more powerful still.

That is because legitimacy alone isn't enough. A vast number of moves are always legitimate. And it is because motivation isn't one-and-done, motivations are referenced, formed, revised continuously during play. The legitimacy dimension gets at what is off the table. If I don't have wings (and assuming wings and only wings are needed to fly) then I can't legitimately declare flight. If we like, we can build motivation into legitimacy by saying something like this. If I don't want to fly, then I can't legitimately declare flight (this example is apposite to story-now play). That's fine, all I care about is that we put motivation into our construct.

My preferred construct makes it explicit. A player's position is the total set of all of the valid (legitimate and motivated) gameplay options available to them at this moment of play. I'm using "valid" here in a similar way to how it is used to understand game balancing, where "valid" options are those that are legitimate and effective. However, I am placing effective into motivated, for what I think are obvious reasons.

Obviously you can and should go on with your version of fictional positioning if you like. You often express a concern for analytical power. Why do you think the version that considers only legitimate moves is better than legitimate + motivated? (Assuming of course that motivated isn't simply built into legitimate, which also works for me.) How do you show that the set of legitimate moves isn't vast and undifferentiated, without bringing in other criteria (i.e. motivated)? It's like Borges' Library: you can take a few books off the shelf (moves that are removed due to constraints) but those remaining on the shelves are still vast in number.
 
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Say Jo tries to escape as imagined here. If Dem is unmotivated, Dem doesn't try to keep Jo from escaping even though that would be a legitimate move. I can't stress this enough - there are at any time a vast number of legitimate moves. Dem could have hopped on one foot. That would be a legitimate move (were motivation not at issue.)

Those moves a character has motivations in connection with, form the subset from which they choose what they say next. Unmotivated moves aren't in that subset. It's meaningless to talk about the vast number of legitimate moves that have nothing to do with what's going on. Hopping on one foot might be an example (there's probably cases where it isn't).
Players decide the motivations of their PCs, and in general they are not required to justify them or map them back to some specific fiction or character attribute (although that may be desirable, possibly even required in some systems). When we discuss something like 5e, it is perfectly within the realm of normal play for a player to invent a motive for her character on the spur of the moment. Maybe sometimes it would not find approval by other participants, but then that's one of those things about 5e! In DW you would expect a significant action with serious moral or plot consequences to follow from a bond, alignment, plot element, etc. This is definitely a difference in games.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
As an interesting footnote, in the thread asking if 5e is gamist, @pemerton wrote (not to summon, but in case they would like to reframe)

Yes. I played "story now" AD&D in the second half of the 80s. I've used RM for "story now" play.

From Edwards' story now essay:

Vanilla Narrativism: Narrativist play without notable use of the following techniques
Director Stance, atypical distribution of GM tasks, verbalizing the Premise in abstract terms, overt rules concerning narration, and improvised additions to the setting or situations. People who typically play in this fashion often fail to recognize themselves as Narrativists.

And also this:

"Vanilla Narrativism" is very easy and straightforward. The key to finding it is to stop reinforcing Simulationist approaches to play. Many role-players, identified by Jesse Burneko as "Simulationist-by-habit," exhaust themselves by seeking El Dorado, racing ever faster and farther, when all they have to do is stop running, turn around, and find Vanilla Narrativism right in their grasp.

I also would expect someone playing "story now" 5e to encounter the same issues that someone playing "story now" Rolemaster or AD&D would, namely, that there are aspects of the system that (by default) encourage/reinforce simulationist or gamist approaches to play: eg the recovery rules push in one or the other direction (simulationist if the table emphasises the flow of ingame time, the "living, breathing" world aspect that is typically recommended as a response to Tin Huts, etc; gamist if the table emphasises the resource recovery aspect and intraparty balance, etc).

Although it's clear to me that my title for this thread was (unintentionally) misleading. I searched for a pithy title, but I should have gone for accuracy, as what I'm proposing is concretely a fiction-first approach to 5e; on the following basis
  1. The 5e game text (in basic pattern and ability check processes) already ensures we do it to do it (even combat starts with an ability check)
  2. The 5e game text offers a fortune method, albeit lacking successes-with-complication
  3. The 5e game text gives it to DM to narrate the results, where system has its say, too
The loose thread 5e* picks up is ensuring we land squarely back in the fiction by ensuring we narrate something meaningful to our fiction (i.e. something that matters, or will matter if picked up on.) One way to think about it is - say something that can change the fictional position. What and how would depend on the matrix of modes in play.

For me it is not at issue for fiction-first that DM narrates results. A mechanics improvement I hope to see in 6e is a method for success-with-complication in d20 resolution. It's a tricky design problem, but hopefully not insoluble. Ignoring it would be to fall behind contemporary standards for fortune methods of resolution.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I don't know if D&D "needs" a success-with-complications ruleset in it per se. Because those that are aware of that type of rule from other games probably already do it in D&D too without even there being an official rule for it. And those that aren't aware of "success-with-complication" ideas yet will be able to play the game fine anyways even without knowing about them. And I daresay that their game wouldn't necessarily be any "better" if it did. There are thousands of different rules across all the different systems in the RPG sphere that work to make games "better"... but a game that doesn't include one or more of them doesn't that make that game ipso facto "worse". So I don't believe it can be said that D&D with a "success-with-complications" ruleset within it would make the overall game better than one that didn't. It certainly might be better for some players... but it can't be said definitively overall.
 

Oofta

Legend
I don't know if D&D "needs" a success-with-complications ruleset in it per se. Because those that are aware of that type of rule from other games probably already do it in D&D too without even there being an official rule for it. And those that aren't aware of "success-with-complication" ideas yet will be able to play the game fine anyways even without knowing about them. And I daresay that their game wouldn't necessarily be any "better" if it did. There are thousands of different rules across all the different systems in the RPG sphere that work to make games "better"... but a game that doesn't include one or more of them doesn't that make that game ipso facto "worse". So I don't believe it can be said that D&D with a "success-with-complications" ruleset within it would make the overall game better than one that didn't. It certainly might be better for some players... but it can't be said definitively overall.
For me success with complication is just one of many possibilities. It just depends on the situation and logical result of failure.

While it's good to think about different ways to handle failure, having a one size fits all rule isn't what I want. I don't want my hand forced. Sometimes I want success with complications, sometimes I want to consider degree of failure, sometimes failure just means you fail.

P.S. don't assume that just because people haven't played a game that has X concept that they are ignorant or can't think of these things on their own.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
P.S. don't assume that just because people haven't played a game that has X concept that they are ignorant or can't think of these things on their own.

Yes, well, if they haven't played a game that has the concept, you cannot assume they do know it. When you aren't face-to-face with folks, it then behooves one to treat it as if the idea is new, until proven otherwise.
 

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