D&D 5E Is Tasha's More or Less The Universal Standard?

[Parmandur]

I totally get this!

So I recently finished a campaign with an 11th level bladesinger with a 16 dex who felt like her average starting initiative was 9!

I swear my 8 dex Tempest cleric has done better.

I mean, I admit that it doesn't hurt, but it's not a guaranteed bonus, right?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

True, but I would not call that a versatile build. That is a very narrow build, and you will need to make it narrower still to optimize it and get regular reliable advantage.

Um. Yes?
The claim being made was about a viable build, not a versatile one. If you want to talk about versatility, like being good at both at both ranged and melee combat, stealth, and other skills etc, that would be a different offshoot.

But it is rarely decisive. The actual d20 roll is more.important than the modifier, and even them it is not a primary consideration in the fight.

Yes?
Outside of high-end rogues, pretty much any d20 roll in 5e is going to depend more on the D20 result than your modifier. Initiative is no exception.
But going before your opponent means that you will get an entire extra turn to do things over the combat. Make a ranged attack, move into a better position and declare dodge, set up a delayed action, throw a buff etc, even if you can't do your primary thing.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I came by to say, if you are really worried about that one action you might lose,
Wisdom is the most important stat or you start your combat surprised, or end it charmed/feared or worse even dominated and acting for the opposing side. Also strength helps you not getting grounded or grabbed every so often.

You can't deny that dex and con useful for every class. HP and a little bit of armor (+2 dex equals turning a hit into a miss every tenth attack against you. It is a bit more complicated for initiative when more than one enemy is involved)

Str is also more imortant if you do actually track encumbrance. So this leaves poor int and cha as not so obvious important stats. Here the question is, how many social or lore checks you make. And this often depends on the way the group in qiestion handles player knowledge and eloquence vs character knowledge and eloquence.

In our games, dexterity is not that far ahead as some people claim it universally is.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Outside of high-end rogues, pretty much any d20 roll in 5e is going to depend more on the D20 result than your modifier. Initiative is no exception.
But going before your opponent means that you will get an entire extra turn to do things over the combat. Make a ranged attack, move into a better position and declare dodge, set up a delayed action, throw a buff etc, even if you can't do your primary thing.

But doing a dodge can mean your waste your first turn and basically places you at the bottom, which can mean you won't ever get your "extra turn".

Also, even a +5 bonus only makes a difference in 25% of combats (against a single foe).
And then the combat might end not after your last action, but after a different last action:

If you had 1 to 2 more AC, and maybe some extra hp, it might actually mean, you go first, but your foe stays alive after your action in a certain round and you go down. So no extra action taken.

That still does not mean, if you are a medium or light armor user, that you should go str over dex. But for actually being in a fight, I often place a higher value on con and str, because I am not comitted to raising my single best stat at every opportunity.

As an example: for a dex character, it is hard to justify taking the dual wielder feat. For a strngth based dual wielder, that feat is actually quite useful. (At least as useful a dual wielding build can be).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Only if you are either not using feats or want to be mediocre.

The high damage melee combatants who don't have a lot of bonus actions in their build use a spear or staff and take the polearm master feat. Rapier is for amateurs.

if you think the rapier is bad... what are your thoughts on the Longsword?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I recently finished a campaign with an 11th level bladesinger with a 16 dex who felt like her average starting initiative was 9!

I swear my 8 dex Tempest cleric has done better.

i feel this soo much

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But doing a dodge can mean your waste your first turn and basically places you at the bottom, which can mean you won't ever get your "extra turn".

Which is why you would probably only do it if you cannot do something more constructive, like your primary thing.
But your opponents having disadvantage to hit you is never worse than them not having disadvantage to hit you. Even if some convoluted scenario is put forward where you cannot do anything more constructive on your first turn, going before your opponents is always going to be better than going after them.

Also, even a +5 bonus only makes a difference in 25% of combats (against a single foe).
And then the combat might end not after your last action, but after a different last action:

If you had 1 to 2 more AC, and maybe some extra hp, it might actually mean, you go first, but your foe stays alive after your action in a certain round and you go down. So no extra action taken.

That still does not mean, if you are a medium or light armor user, that you should go str over dex. But for actually being in a fight, I often place a higher value on con and str, because I am not comitted to raising my single best stat at every opportunity.

As an example: for a dex character, it is hard to justify taking the dual wielder feat. For a strngth based dual wielder, that feat is actually quite useful. (At least as useful a dual wielding build can be).

Indeed. That is precisely what I was saying. A bonus is always a benefit, but it is hardly ever a guarantee.

 

[Irlo]

But going before your opponent means that you will get an entire extra turn to do things over the combat. Make a ranged attack, move into a better position and declare dodge, set up a delayed action, throw a buff etc, even if you can't do your primary thing.

I was thinking about the occassional disadvantages of going before certain of my allies, but those are corner cases and picking nits. Generally, a higher initiative result is better.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Indeed. That is precisely what I was saying. A bonus is always a benefit, but it is hardly ever a guarantee.

Not really. You fail to mention that every point you put in dex does not go to a different good stat. A cleric with 13 or even 15 str and 16 wis can easily increase Wis and then Con (and even taking a feat) and don't worry about AC ever. If they need initiative that badly, alert is much more useful than any increase in dex could ever be.

The disadvantage of depending on Dex is that you need to raise it to 20 to get the full benefit (and having AC close to the heavy armor wearer).
As a cleric or paladin or probably even a fighter, I don't want that commitment. As a Paladin or cleric I migh want resilent constitution to keep my spells running reliably or charisma to increase the benefit of the paladin aura to help my allies regardless of my position in the initiative order.
So please. Dexterity is not the one and only stat. It is a generally good to have stat (as it has always been in ADnD and 3.5 and 4e).

 

[ECMO3]

The high damage melee combatants who don't have a lot of bonus actions in their build use a spear or staff and take the polearm master feat. Rapier is for amateurs.

Or they use cantrips. Weapon+booming Blade+movement damage is pretty high damage and it scales better than the bonus action with PAM.