D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[Xetheral]

Friendo, the increased prevalence of non-spell magical abilities relative to spells in monster statblocks post-MMotM makes anti-spell abilities less effective than they were pre-MMotM. If you don’t want to use the term “metagame” to describe that… ok I guess? It doesn’t change the actual content of my argument.

I was trying to engage with your argument, not the specific terminology, I apologize for being unclear!

My point is that having the effectiveness of anti-spell abilities change in the mechanics either requires the table to ignore that change in the lore of the game world, or else to have that change in IC effectiveness be reflected by a change in the lore of the game world. A OOC dynamic environment where certain spells and abilities change in mechanical effectiveness creates a problem for tables that want the in game lore to reflect the mechanics but don't want to retcon the setting or have an IC dynamic environment where characters are aware that the utility of certain spells changes over time.

For example, at a table that wants to switch to using new-style caster statblocks, Globe of Invulnerability has changed OOC from blocking almost all PC caster and NPC caster offensive abilities to only working at full effectiveness against a small handful of people in the game world (the PCs and any NPCs built using slots)--all the other casters' primary attack bypasses the spell's protection. Such a table could: (1) choose to simply ignore that change and have PCs and NPCs make IC decisions on whether or not to prepare/learn Globe of Invulnerability as if the spell was still fully effective against all casters; (2) retcon the setting so that the perceived IC value of preparing/learning Globe of Invulnerability matches the new mechanics, and rebuild all PCs and NPC casters so that they can make a new IC decision on whether or not to prepare/learn the spell; or (3) have an IC event that explains the change in effectiveness so that casters are IC aware of the change and can take IC actions to adapt to it as best they can. At my table, at least, none of these options are palatable.

More broadly, because of the myriad approaches that tables take to connecting mechanics to in-game lore, there are far more complications to having a dynamic PC vs NPC metagame in an RPG than there are in games without as strong of a roleplaying element.

 

[Malmuria]

Thanks for qualifying your position:

"I don't have the time and energy to play D&D the way it has been played the last 50 years, and I want WOTC to dumb the game down to cater to my lifestyle".

Well, it is clear that the accountants and marketers at WOTC/ Hasbro are listening to you.

If you think dnd has been played one way for 50 years, and these new stat blocks are some turning point, then I’m really not sure how familiar you are with the various editions of the game and how different they were from each other. Either that or you are inventing this 50 year tradition so that you can insult other people for “dumbing it down.”

Do you still use descending armor class? Percentile thief skills? Npcs with long feat trees giving them a host of situational bonuses? No, you play 5e, the “dumbed down” version of the game

 

[Charlaquin]

And at which point will we stop having 5ed and start having something entirely different in scope and play but still called 5ed? At some point, it will simply be a false representation. Let's be done with 5ed and move on to 6ed already as the game is starting to no longer look like what I bought.

I don’t disagree with you on this matter, I’m just saying I don’t think it’s going to happen. Calling it a new edition is too big a risk. It’s just going to be “optional rules updates.”

 

[Minigiant]

Thanks for qualifying your position:

"I don't have the time and energy to play D&D the way it has been played the last 50 years, and I want WOTC to dumb the game down to cater to my lifestyle".

Well, it is clear that the accountants and marketers at WOTC/ Hasbro are listening to you.

If you didn't notice 5e is not 1e.

The whole reason WHY WOTC is doing this is because 5e is not like 1e.

A CR 6 NOC Mage from the MM can cast shield SEVEN times which can let it negate enough Greatswords swings to drop 1 Cold of Cold, 3 Ice Storms, and 3 Fireballs on a level 6 party in 7 rounds.

That's the thing. 5th Edition gives/gave mid level NPC spellcasters a half bajillion spell slots to vomit all over a party because they don't have to conserve them.

 

[Charlaquin]

But we're they even worth considering as improvement? Even during 4ed, there were those of that claimed that the stat block for casters were lacking. At least that is what I remember from the forums back then.

There were definitely those who didn’t consider it an improvement. I was one of the ones who did.

 

[Helldritch]

I have yet to understand a problem with the new stat blocks.

According to Crawford, most people that play D&D want to do so for 2-3 hour sessions once a week or once every two weeks. Every change they are doing isto make it so people who play the game for this duration have ample enough resources to enjoy themselves. Streamlined monster stat blocks are part of that.

If I have a 40 hour a week job and am also running a game, I don't want to have to parse an entire freaking 1st to 9th level spell list and then have to manage 1-3 of those spell lists in a session in a fight. If I have a salary position and I work anywhere from 40-80+ hours a week, I def don't have time to go through the 15 1st-5th level spells the ARchmage has but will never use, and think about what upcasting those spells would be.

I don't have the time. I'm not the only one. It is 2022, and in America, you work more then you live. On top of that, D&D is competing with board games, video games, movies, television, books, comics, and foreign entertainment markets like anime and manga. This isn't even getting into music, martial arts, or any other hobby you could have. So to convince me, and to convince other people, to play D&D every week, which takes hours of prep across a campaign and learning the rules and so on, you need the game to play a bit lighter.

D&D obviously doesn't want to get too light. They are very happy with their current amount of crunch, and are even increasing it given the upcoming feat rules changes for Dragonlance etc. But spellcasters as they were before are a nightmare to run for a time-pressed GM, and you'll never run more then 1 at the same time because holy hell is controlling 3-4 spell lists at the same time an immense feat of focus and knowledge.

Lastly, I'm sorry, but some of you are acting so spoiled. It isn't hard to change a stat block. It isn't hard to buff it. It isn't hard to add more spells, or to say that when they use one of their 1/day spells that it counts as a spell slot of that level for whatever random reason you come up with. It just isn't that hard. And the fact that "Arcane Blast" isn't a spell your players can learn doesn't matter either. Its obviously some trick the wizard has, just like how dragons breathe fire and so on. The fact that player's don't get it is mitigated by the fact that players get a huge amount of options. They don't need an Arcane Blast, which is a filler for whatever cantrip you want it to be.

People on this forum have lost perspective with the rest of the fandom. You think that because its easy for you to pick up and play the game as is, that it is for everyone, but it is not. DMing D&D has never been easy, and making monsters easier to run is a big boon for the game. I much more prefer this new direction then anything in the past, because now I can run a whole rival part of spellcasters and not have to worry about 100 spell slots to keep track of (what a horrible thing!).

According to Crawford.... who cares? How many of these will stay in 3 years from now? COVID helped our hobby a lot, but as I'm the '80s, the vast majority of the new player influx will leave. A sad but undeniable truth. Better work/build/develop for those that will stay.

You work 40 hours, so do I (42 on average, actually sometimes a lot more if you count overtime) And yet, I have two groups + 1 exhibit game every 2 or three weeks. My wife does not play and yet we spend a lot of time together. All it takes, is time management and how to organize yourself. Playing a high level caster or 5 at the same time is not an impossible feat if you prepare yourself just a bit. But the main problem is exactly this, no one prepares his games...
The game does not need to be lighter, people need to be more concise and take the hobby more seriously. And if you still believe Crawford, the vast majority stop playing at level 7 to 10. They will never see Vecna type casters anyways... So why's the change in the stats blocks?

As for the feats in Dragonlance. If you associate this with complexity... I am sorry but it is not. And I am not sure people really want feat chains and feat taxes again. I am really not sure. But I do welcome Dragonlance with open arms.

And no I am not acting like a selfish spoiled child. On the contrary. I speak for those who don't and believe like I do that major changes in an edition requires a new one. And I want to be clear, I will jump on the train if 6ed without a second thought. But the changes started from TCoE are not what was in the playtests for 5ed and are a major step away from the philosophy of 5ed and add the stat block to that and we are awfully close to an entirely new edition if D&D Noth even worth naming 5.5ed but worth a full name, that is 6ed.

As for the last paragraph. No it is not easy. It is not hard either. Again, all it takes is a bit of prep time and time management. Heck, if I can do it, so can anyone else.

 

[Reynard]

I think maybe a good way to come at the broader question of how to build a caster stat block is to ask what the stat block is for. What is it supposed to represent?

On the one hand, you could consider the stat block to be the complete total game statistics summation of the entity. In that case, it makes sense to want to have as much information in the stat block as possible. This quickly becomes unwieldy because not only do you need to include all spells prepared, but all spells known, as well as all items owned, all resources available and so on.

On the other hand, if you think of the stat black as a snapshot in time of the entity when it is going to be encountered by the PCs, you are free to trim it down and make it more utilitarian. Is it for a combat encounter? load upon on theblasting! Is it an ally? Buff buffet! Like that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Thanks for qualifying your position:

"I don't have the time and energy to play D&D the way it has been played the last 50 years, and I want WOTC to dumb the game down to cater to my lifestyle".

Well, it is clear that the accountants and marketers at WOTC/ Hasbro are listening to you.

There’s some irony to phrasing it that way when the counter-argument is essentially “it’s too much trouble for me to pad out the spell list.” The other way the game has been played for 50 years is that DMs freely modify content to suit their tastes, instead of feeling bound by official content.

So it’s a little hard to take seriously an argument that on the one hand “you noob casuals are unable/unwilling to do a little hard work” and on the other hand “a tweak to official stat blocks is ruining the game”.


/worldstiniestviolin

 

[Synthil]

"I don't have the time and energy to play D&D the way it has been played the last 50 years, and I want WOTC to dumb the game down to cater to my lifestyle".

Where is your problem with this? If you have the time and energy to run it the old way, you have the time and energy to add it back in.
Or do you need the game to "dumb it down" for you, by spelling out what kinds of spells and slots a monster has, to use it the old way? Or is it only dumbing it down when the game goes in a direction you don't like?

If you think making things more efficient is dumbing it down, you should have no problem with adding stuff yourself. So maybe stop asking for your way to be included to help you run it more efficiently. Efficiency is just dumbing down, according to yourself.

 

[Undrave]

NPC designed the same as PC is a stupid design. I don't care about your versimilitude because, as a PC, unless I look at the stat block, I'll never realize the difference. I don't really care if an enemy can do something I can't.