Why Jargon is Bad, and Some Modern Resources for RPG Theory

Absolutely.

Hence - in the context of TTRPGing - when we're talking about a GM portraying NPCs, or when we're talking about players portraying their PCs interacting with on another, I think the idea of deciding simply by inhabiting the character starts to lose its purchase. We don't want people to storm away from the table, especially if they're our friends who have turned up to spend the afternoon hanging out with us! And so we don't set about inducing, in them, the sorts of emotions that would lead someone to storm out. Rather, we ask them to imagine that someone is trying to do that, and/or has done that, and then to author something in response.
Even in larps there's a gradient to immersion, and either way, such a thing must be acknowledged and accounted for, or problems are likely. Changing one's level of immersion is a skill, and it isn't one that's deliberately taught or supported in my limited experience larping. Again, I hear things are different in the nordic/jeepform community.

But how to we decide what to ask them to imagine? Do they imagine someone yelling at them? Do they imagine someone yelling at them so hard they can't take it any more? Do they imagine someone yelling at them so hard they can't take it any more and storm off?
And then there's the possibility of actually being yelled at, which I have seen in both larps and tabletop games. I've been luckier in my tabletop games, in that even in very heated exchanges, the people involved are capable of communicating at the same time that they are in fact playing a part. So somebody might get legitimately worked up in character, and slam the table or kick back their chair, but they don't actually leave the room (and the game). This is a side jaunt from where you're going, of course, but I figured it worth pointing out.

Most versions of D&D go as far as the first possibility: one participant is allowed to establish this person is yelling at this other person, but then whoever is in charge of that other person gets to decide the rest.

Burning Wheel goes as far as the second possibility: one participant is allowed to establish this person is yelling at this other person, and then if a check (Intimidate is the most obvious candidate) succeeds, the other person's controller has to roll a Steel check. Depending on how that ends up, the other person might find that their character is not able to take it any more! (But they still get to decide how they respond to the failed Steel check, from a limited menu of options.)

Marvel Heroic RP goes as far as the third possibility: one participant is allowed to establish this person is yelling at this other person, and then if a check succeeds might impose a Storm Off complication on the other character. How that resolves in the fiction will depend on the dice size of the complication, among other things, but the controller of the other character isn't allowed to just narrate fiction as if no such complication was part of it.

I don't think any of these approaches is at odds with inhabiting and emoting a character.
They aren't necessarily at odds, but I can see how a context switch can upset the mental state of inhabiting and emoting a character, and for some players that's a no-go. But again, changing one's level of immersion is a skill that can be developed, much like actors taking direction in between (and sometimes during!) takes. I will refrain from linking to the infamous Christian Bale rant, however. 😉

The nuts and bolts of a game mechanic dictating one's character's response, though, that's ultimately a player preference. If you really don't like it, you're not gonna enjoy games that do that very much. Me, I'm fine with it, as long as the mechanic allows results to be informed by my character's values & such.
 

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there's the possibility of actually being yelled at, which I have seen in both larps and tabletop games. I've been luckier in my tabletop games, in that even in very heated exchanges, the people involved are capable of communicating at the same time that they are in fact playing a part. So somebody might get legitimately worked up in character, and slam the table or kick back their chair, but they don't actually leave the room (and the game). This is a side jaunt from where you're going, of course, but I figured it worth pointing out.
I tend to see these as cases where the contrast between what's real and what's pretend is successfully maintained.

They aren't necessarily at odds, but I can see how a context switch can upset the mental state of inhabiting and emoting a character, and for some players that's a no-go. But again, changing one's level of immersion is a skill that can be developed, much like actors taking direction in between (and sometimes during!) takes. I will refrain from linking to the infamous Christian Bale rant, however.
Now I have to Google the rant, whose infamy hasn't quite reached me yet!

<watches rant, returns to post>

As you say, Bale is being directed. And is following a script. He's not authoring his character's response (at the level of generality that we use in RPGing action declarations, like "I point my gun at the prisoner" or "I point my gun at the Terminator"). If there's a cut, and a new bit of direction is given, he has to cope with that. Likewise when RPGing, we might want to know - OK, what's going to happen next? - and we roll some dice and then people go back to portraying their characters.

This happens all the time in RPG combat! (Which is what is being filmed in the Bale rant.) Why does the fact that it's talking rather than shooting make a difference? Human emotions are human emotions.

And I know that there is an answer to my question in the previous paragraph: traditionally RPG combat doesn't involve human emotion at all but is purely a wargame. But that just shows how this whole "combat needs mechanics but social doesn't" thing rests on premises about how the game has to be set up which are not only not self-evident, but have been expressly rejected by a range of RPGs for 30+ years now. Like in Prince Valiant (1989), where the degree of emotional investment of the character affects their combat dice. Which clearly invites the player to inhabit their character and portray their emotions (which I've seen players do, playing Prince Valiant PCs). But they also roll the dice to find out what happens.

To me it seems like there's another issue in play here, too, which I think is driven home by the next part of your post:

The nuts and bolts of a game mechanic dictating one's character's response, though, that's ultimately a player preference. If you really don't like it, you're not gonna enjoy games that do that very much.
What you seem to be positing here is a RPGer who can only perform their character if they also get to author their character; perhaps only if they also get to author their character right in the moment of performing them.

So first, any comparison of that RPGer to an actor (method or otherwise) seems out of place. The whole thing about acting - as driven home by the Bale rant - is that the performance is distinct from the authorship.

Second, what happens if you and I are both that sort of RPGer, and my conception of my character and your conception of your character collide in the moment of performance? Like your character and my character are at odds, and your character is the sort who never gives in, or at least who won't give in here, and my character is the sort who never gives in, or at lest who won't give in here? I gather that, in one of the Fast & Furious offshoots, this issue between Dwayne Johnson and Jason Stratham was resolved by having each deliver exactly the same number of blows and then both falling out the window? (Or being blown up, or some other thing that made it a tie.)

As far as gameplay is concerned, it seems to me there are three basic solutions.

One is the "neo-trad" solution: everyone gets to play their character as they conceive it, and the GM's job is to manage things - including maybe convenient explosions - to make sure all the character conceptions can all be preserved through the course of play.

A second involves the sorts of social cues that @Campbell describes - someone decides to give in based on some communicated signal or imperative that is not based on the play of their PC but is necessary to keep the game going. (A stronger version of this: players don't build or play PCs who can come into conflict with other PCs; an even stronger version is when they don't even come into conflict with other characters - I saw that sometimes at AD&D 2nd ed tables.)

A third involves looking to some external cue, like the dice, to help tell us what happens next. That means that instead of clinging to our PCs in the neotrad style, we play our characters like stolen cars, wearing the dings with pride! That doesn't mean we can't inhabit them, emote them, even identify with them a bit.
 

A third involves looking to some external cue, like the dice, to help tell us what happens next. That means that instead of clinging to our PCs in the neotrad style, we play our characters like stolen cars, wearing the dings with pride! That doesn't mean we can't inhabit them, emote them, even identify with them a bit.
Seems to me the problem is that there is a certain segment of the RPG community who are entirely sold on the idea that the only way to inhabit and identify with your character is free roleplay. Honestly, and I don't mean this as a bash on people who hold this view, but it feels VERY MUCH like the way many people are fixed on the idea that the GM provides all of the fiction, and acts as a referee with plenary authority, that every single thing in play must stem from some in-game cause, etc. These are ALL very old traditional ideas about RPGs that trace back to the 1970s and are often just blindly accepted and perhaps not even examined in a lot of cases. RPG people seem to be 2 almost separate communities, one is VERY STODGY and the other is the opposite, lol.
 

I dunno, to be fair immersive play is always very individual and idiosyncratic in how it works for people; the fact that for some mechanics are actively intrusive does not surprise me. I can look at it from a distance since I rarely try to play immersively face to face at all (but then, I had no trouble playing immersively when I was typing poses including action, dialog, and quasi-narrative, so my own take is arguably just as idiosyncratic).
 

Seems to me the problem is that there is a certain segment of the RPG community who are entirely sold on the idea that the only way to inhabit and identify with your character is free roleplay.
Yes there are.

As I posted, it hits a wall when two free roleplayers won't budge. The solution that I'm most familiar with is to make sure - via the sort of GM control of the fiction you also mention - that the main focus of play isn't something that will generate deep but opposed commitments from the various players of the various protagonists.
 




I really don't have time or energy to address this now. There seems to be such fundamental disagreements regarding what roleplaying even is that I wouldn't know how to start to unpack this. 🤷

I just say that to me the point of roleplaying is attempting to inhabit the mind of a fictional character the best I can and making decisions as them. Everything else is bells, whistles and other optional extras.
 


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