D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Charlaquin]

The RAW is knowledge agnostic: it has no bearing on the ability one way or the other. What Vecna knows and how is an after the fact fluff justification. The RAW doesn’t involve that element, but is clear in regards to.im game effect.

I think I see where the disconnect is. You, and I think @dave2008, are thinking of Dread Counterspell as an ability the DM uses. I, and I think @Flamestrike, are thinking of it as an ability Vecna uses. In your mind, if the conditions are met, the DM can choose to invoke the ability. In my mind, it is Vecna who chooses to invoke the ability, which would require awareness that he has the option to do so.

 

[dave2008]

Which means that, in this analogy, you cannot choose not to react.

OK, what is your point. I also can't cast spells. I probably can't choose to not react, but I could possibly chose to muffle my voice and not curse. I see it the same with Vecna. He feels a wave if the spellcasting force, he can then chose to dreadspell or not. I don't think that is required by RAW, but that is how I think of it and it is acceptable by RAW.

 

[Parmandur]

I think I see where the disconnect is. You, and I think @dave2008, are thinking of Dread Counterspell as an ability the DM uses. I, and I think @Flamestrike, are thinking of it as an ability Vecna uses. In your mind, if the conditions are met, the DM can choose to invoke the ability. In my mind, it is Vecna who chooses to invoke the ability, which would require awareness that he has the option to do so.

Yes, precisely so. Now, why does Vecna have this open is an RP question that seems easy enough to solve from different angles, and it would have been nice.if the block expanded on that because it seems pretty clear that he is meant to always have it available if the DM sees that it applies.

 

[dave2008]

I think I see where the disconnect is. You, and I think @dave2008, are thinking of Dread Counterspell as an ability the DM uses.

Well that is literally true, so yes that is how I think of it.

I, and I think @Flamestrike, are thinking of it as an ability Vecna uses.

That is fine. RAW allows for that too.

In your mind, if the conditions are met, the DM can choose to invoke the ability. In my mind, it is Vecna who chooses to invoke the ability, which would require awareness that he has the option to do so.

Yes, but that is something you are bringing to the table, not the RAW. The RAW is for a game. It is up to the DM to decided on the fiction part of it. And I feel I have given you reasonable explanations that fit RAW and your fictional requirements.

 

[Charlaquin]

And I'll say that is never wrong or anything less than honorable, and it surely is often very tricky to nail down exactly what some seemingly-clear passage really, properly entails. That's why lawyers need such schoolin' before they're set loose on the world.

I thought Parmandur's claim, though, included not just an appeal to the immediate text of the description, but also the surrounding text of the adventure. Parmandur, did I read you rightly? If so, maybe something of that content could help answer Charlaquin's pursuit of precision on this. No?

Right there with ya. A noble pursuit, surely.

I appreciate the attempt to turn to the text to find clarity, that is what I’m looking for here. The relevant text of the adventure has been quoted a couple of times now, and I have found it to add valuable context, but not to be sufficient to establish that Vecna knows when a spell is being cast even if it has no components. However, it did move me from a position of “Vecna definitely can’t use Dread Counterspell on a spell with no components because he would have no way of knowing it’s being cast” to “it may be RAI for Vecna to be able to recognize that a spell is being cast even if it has no components, but that is not clear from RAW alone.” If anyone can cite anything else from the text of the stat block, the adventure, the dossier, or any developer comments, that would help actually move the conversation forward. Otherwise we’re just spinning our wheels.

 

[Charlaquin]

No the mechanics are he needs to see the caster and they need to be casting a spell. By RAW, he does not need to be aware.

He does not need to be aware for Dread Counterspell to be a valid option for him to choose. However, I contend that he could not choose it unless he was aware it’s a valid option. If a restaurant offers cake but that cake isn’t on the menu, I can’t order it even though they offer it.

 

[dave2008]

He does not need to be aware for Dread Counterspell to be a valid option for him to choose. However, I contend that he could not choose it unless he was aware it’s a valid option.

But by RAW, it is a valid option. So you need to craft your fiction to fit the RAW.

If a restaurant offers cake but that cake isn’t on the menu, I can’t order it even though they offer it.

Sure I could. Just today my daughter order something (sliders) that was not on the menu. The waiter then confirmed they did have them, and she could order them. Not exactly what you are talking about, but this was just 3 hours ago so it was fresh in my mind!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I don’t care. The lore is irrelevant to me right now, I want to understand the content and intent of the rules text first. Please stop trying to use lore to convince me, it won’t work.

You asked earlier for RAI. Lore is the reason for RAI. The designers love lore. It's the only reason I brought it up. Vecna's lore suggesting that he could do these things is evidence for why the designers may have worded it that way on purpose.

You seem to have dug your heels in pretty hard here, when you start to tell people that you don't care about their reasonable explanations.

 

[dave2008]

To @Charlaquin , @Flamestrike , @MarkB I have enjoyed our discussion, but I spent way to much time on this topic. I am sorry it is not clear to you, but what is clear to me is that my reasoning and logic are not helping you. So I am going to move on to other things. Good luck and have great day!

 

[Swarmkeeper]

You asked earlier for RAI. Lore is the reason for RAI. The designers love lore. It's the only reason I brought it up. Vecna's lore suggesting that he could do these things is evidence for why the designers may have worded it that way on purpose.

You seem to have dug your heels in pretty hard here, when you start to tell people that you don't care about their reasonable explanations.

it would be helpful if you would cite or link to the 5e lore that makes it so. Thanks