D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Zubatcarteira]

Just bring a wooden plank and hide behind it.

 

[Maxperson]

Just bring a wooden plank and hide behind it.

I'd allow it! How's that going to beat Vecna, though?

 

[MarkB]

No you can't, because the corridor outside of the room isn't going straight back to allow you to do that. He's planned for that and will not have it set up that way. You can go sideways, but then you can only cast to the outside of the room in the corridor, or just barely inside the room where it won't reach him.

This is a freaking lich with more thousands of years of casting combat experience than your PC has single years alive. And he's smarter than your PC to boot.

Yeah, that's not a room and corridor that actually exist. Also, as @Zubatcarteira mentioned, just bring a big table or similar and you can make your own total cover.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'd allow it! How's that going to beat Vecna, though?

By slamming the plank down onto his head over and over with great force and vigor?

 

[James Gasik]

But shield doesn’t happen after the attack, it happens just before it.

But after you know whether you would be hit or not...

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, that's not a room and corridor that actually exist. Also, as @Zubatcarteira mentioned, just bring a big table or similar and you can make your own total cover.

So first, all you do is make the door to the right or left side of the hallway, not at the end of it. So yes, it is a room and corridor that can actually exist. Second, Vecna isn't just going to sit there while you move in. It takes longer than 6 seconds to get a table through a doorway. Also, if you have something large enough to be total cover that you are carrying, you are using your action to set it up and use it, not to cast a spell.

 

[Maxperson]

By slamming the plank down onto his head over and over with great force and vigor?

I have to admit, he probably would not expect that from a spellcaster!

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, Vecna has thousands of years of experience, research, and knowledge acquisition. The idea that his lair isn't warded against silence or that he hasn't used a wish to be immune to it is pretty odd. He's just not going to be taken out by so simplistic a maneuver.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It is enough for me to fully understand that you cannot admit the truth. I was done with this thread before I summoned you and I shouldn't have come back. I had a bit to much faith in humanity I guess.

If Vecna's feature was this:

Dread Interruption. Vecna utters a dread word against a creature he can see. If the creature is casting a spell, Vecna attempts to interrupt the spell (maybe the creature or the creature casting the spell would be better???). If the spell is 4th level or lower, it fails and has no effect. If the spell is 5th level or higher, Vecna makes an Intelligence check (DC 10 + the spell’s level). On a success, the spell fails and has no effect. Whatever the spell’s level, the caster takes 10 (3d6) psychic damage if the spell fails. If the creature is not casting a spell, this feature has no effect.

I would agree with you completely that Vecna simply has to see the creature.

But as it stands, it is a reaction. A reaction to what? A creature that is casting a spell. If Subtle Spell is used and there are only V,S components, how does Vecna know a spell is being cast? Without knowing that, he has no reason to use his reaction to try to stop it. If he doesn't use his reaction, he isn't using the feature.

And FWIW, three opinions, regardless of how knowledgeable they appear to be ( ) when everyone I've spoken with agrees there is no difference in the language used between "that is" and "in the process of" in this instance. You have your experts, I have mine.

Unfortunately, with natural language, 5E is rife with such issues, such as Flurry of Blows:

Does the wording "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn" mean:

1. You take the Attack action to make an attack, then you can initiate Flurry of Blows, then finish with Extra Attack, OR
2. You take the Attack action to make an attack, and an Extra Attack, and then you can initiate Flurry of Blows.

How important is the word "immediately" in this case? What about the phrase "after you take the Attack action"?

And what about moving between the attack action and beginning your Flurry? Can you move or does "immediately" mean you can't move? Is this a case of the specific "immediately" trumping the general rule you can move between attacks?

Does "after you take the Attack action" mean you have to complete it? Or once you make an attack, is that enough?

FWIW, JC seems content to rule immediately still allows you to move, but after you take the Attack action means you must finish Extra Attack before you can begin the Flurry.

To make his take stick, a better writing would be: "After you finish taking the Attack action, you can spend 1 ki....". This way it is clear you must finish your Attack action (which includes any Extra Attack) and then spend ki to gain the bonus action. By removing the word immediately, you can also move before using your bonus action.

But IMO "immediately" means immediately--you can't move, but "after you take the Attack action" means you've attacked, it doesn't say "after you finish your Attack action." After all, your bonus action is separate from your action, so is separate from your attack (usually?).

You might not agree (which is fine--my apologies for getting you so frustrated), but the fact remains 5E's use of natural languages leads to WAY TOO MUCH interpretation--even between experts. A few key changes in the wording, and the intent becomes much clearer (see my rewrite of Dread Interruption above... IF that was their intent at least).

 

[Vaalingrade]

If he's so capable of avoiding simplistic maneuvers, let's see him clap.

Oh. Right.

As D&D's most cartoon supervillain* (more than the actual cartoon's supervillain), Vecna might be smart, but he ain't bright.

Edit: *Wait. Nope. Forgot Countess Failula herself, Lloth.