D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[MarkB]

IF you could set it up so that you could reach a spot near him from cover. That's unlikely, though, with a being who has been battling with spells for thousands of years. He's going to know about that tactic and have it set up so that you can't do it without being in sight.

Silence has a 120 foot range. Vecna's going to need to have some seriously massive unfurnished rooms if he wants to avoid anyone getting that close to him with access to total cover.

 

[Maxperson]

Silence has a 120 foot range. Vecna's going to need to have some seriously massive unfurnished rooms if he wants to avoid anyone getting that close to him with access to total cover.

You have to be able to see the point you are casting at. If you are at the back of the room behind total cover, you are casting straight up, sideways or behind you. If you want to get it close to him, you need line of effect and that means visibility to him. And what furnishing does he really need other than the chair, table and bookshelves against the wall? He's a lich.

The room won't be set up to allow what you are proposing. He won't be within 20 feet of any point you can see while you are also behind any possible cover you will find.

 

[MarkB]

You have to be able to see the point you are casting at. If you are at the back of the room behind total cover, you are casting straight up, sideways or behind you. If you want to get it close to him, you need line of effect and that means visibility to him. And what furnishing does he really need other than the chair, table and bookshelves against the wall? He's a lich.

The room won't be set up to allow what you are proposing. He won't be within 20 feet of any point you can see behind any possible cover you will find.

You do know how ridiculous that is, right? Unless the room's the size of a stadium, he's already within 20 feet of a spot less than 120 feet from me that I can see from total cover when I get to the doorway.

And if it is that large and bare, that's great - my ranged-attack friends will have fun peppering him without him having any possible recourse to Vile Teleport into even the slightest possibility of cover against their attacks.

 

[Maxperson]

You do know how ridiculous that is, right? Unless the room's the size of a stadium, he's already within 20 feet of a spot less than 120 feet from me that I can see from total cover when I get to the doorway.

No, you can't. You can be behind total cover at the doorway, but then you cannot see the point to cast at. OR you can peek out and cast the spell, but then he can see you casting and counter you. You cannot be both behind total cover at the doorway AND see inside to the point you want to cast at.

 

[Mort]

You do know how ridiculous that is, right? Unless the room's the size of a stadium, he's already within 20 feet of a spot less than 120 feet from me that I can see from total cover when I get to the doorway.

And if it is that large and bare, that's great - my ranged-attack friends will have fun peppering him without him having any possible recourse to Vile Teleport into even the slightest possibility of cover against their attacks.

That was the basis of Treeantmonk's demo. 2 arcane archers (granted 20th level) completely destroyed Vecna in 1 round because they could pepper him at range without any of his abilities mitigating their attacks. I do think Treeantmonk was a bit too generous with the situation, but the fact of the matter is - Vecna will go down pretty easy to dedicated martial ranged attacks. Unless the DM plans extra carefully and adds things not in the statblock or the adventure.

 

[Charlaquin]

Again though, other reaction spells can do that. Shield has Verbal and Somatic components, after all...

But shield doesn’t happen after the attack, it happens just before it.

 

[MarkB]

No, you can't. You can be behind total cover at the doorway, but then you cannot see the point to cast at. OR you can peek out and cast the spell, but then he can see you casting and counter you. You cannot be both behind total cover at the doorway AND see inside to the point you want to cast at.

You know he's not moving during my turn, right? I can step in, see where he is, then move just far enough out that he can't see me anymore, and pop the spell in the space just next to where I last saw him.

 

[Maxperson]

That was the basis of Treeantmonk's demo. 2 arcane archers (granted 20th level) completely destroyed Vecna in 1 round because they could pepper him at range without any of his abilities mitigating their attacks. I do think Treeantmonk was a bit too generous with the situation, but the fact of the matter is - Vecna will go down pretty easy to dedicated martial ranged attacks. Unless the DM plans extra carefully and adds things not in the statblock or the adventure.

A target with total cover is completely concealed by the cover. There is no visibility in or out.

"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."

"A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."

If the caster of silence is behind total cover, the imaginary line to where the silence is to be cost is blocked.

 

[Mort]

A target with total cover is completely concealed by the cover. There is no visibility in or out.

"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."

"A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."

If the caster of silence is behind total cover, the imaginary line to where the silence is to be cost is blocked.

Hmm, I think you meant to reply to @MarkB ?

 

[Maxperson]

You know he's not moving during my turn, right? I can step in, see where he is, then move just far enough out that he can't see me anymore, and pop the spell in the space just next to where I last saw him.

No you can't, because the corridor outside of the room isn't going straight back to allow you to do that. He's planned for that and will not have it set up that way. You can go sideways, but then you can only cast to the outside of the room in the corridor, or just barely inside the room where it won't reach him.

This is a freaking lich with more thousands of years of casting combat experience than your PC has single years alive. And he's smarter than your PC to boot.