A critique and review of the Fighter class

[bedir than]

This is the disconnect. I feel that nothing is preventing a Fighter from having a decent Persuasion. And it doesn't need some shiny button. Their unique feature is 2 ASIs.

20 CHA is good imo.

20 STR Wiz would be competent at fighting, Athletics, etc. Competence does not mean you have to be the best.

I have never requested nor suggested that the Fighter be the best at social or exploration.

I have stated that they have no Tier 1 feature that relates to either social or exploration. They are the only class this is true for. Pointing out the two potential Feats ignores that Feats are optional, that neither are Tier 1, and that 1 is almost never seen in play.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Feats are optional but they are an option. I have trouble taking seriously an argument that rejects feats as a valid solution.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The stats are meaningless.

No they aren't - but they are only a small part of the picture. More important is synergy; I think that everyone would agree that Cha 20 would help paladins with other things they did than being a direct face more than it would fighters.

20 STR Wiz would be competent at fighting, Athletics, etc. Competence does not mean you have to be the best.

But would a 20 STR wizard be competent at fighting in melee? With no armour proficiency, a d6 hit dice, simple weapons, no fighting styles, and no second attack they'd need a greatclub to have the melee damage of a first level duelist fighter with a longsword. And thinking you're competent in melee when you aren't is a very fast way to become dead.

And that's the point. The wizard may have Str 20 and so be talented. But they don't many of the other things needed to make the best use of that strength, like good weapons and an extra attack. It's just a stat. Which is the same issue with "Fighters can have a good Cha". And it's not just combat where thinking you're better than you are is a fast way to become dead.

 

[bedir than]

Feats are optional but they are an option. I have trouble taking seriously an argument that rejects feats as a valid solution.

Considering that every class gets a Feat in Tier 1, no, they aren't an answer to "What unique feature do Fighters get in Tier 1?"

 

[Vaalingrade]

Feats are optional but they are an option. I have trouble taking seriously an argument that rejects feats as a valid solution.

Because the game pretends that it works without feats.

And the presence of feats is in control of the DM, not the player. You can't just assume you're going to be able to use the most important customization element in the game because the designers were trying to win over people who were still mad at them after almost two decades.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

They also get a very different selection of hit dice proficiencies & abilities at level 1 & 2 when fighter are getting all weapons d10 hit die all armor & a short rest pegged action surge/second wind & so on. None of the classes you mentioned gets a third or fourth attack extra attack though. The poster I was responding to in the post you quoted was lamenting the fact that the level 6 fighter ASI is not in tier1 (the level 4 fighter ASI is as someone noted).

Most fighters don't get a third or fourth attack either! WOTC said most games end before level 10. WOTC also said most games don't use their ridiculous amount recommended of encounters either. They designed the fighter for a style few play and/or want. People don't want low risk filler encounters that only exist to nickel and dime resources until you get to the good part. That's MMO grinding, and I thought 4E was the video game edition lol.

Second wind is non-scaling garbage. Action surge is about twice a day effectively with the way people play per WOTC's admission. The extra ASI is great, but it creates Schroedinger's Fighter, where sure, they could theoretically compete in more areas, but since they don't get to repick their superpowers after a nap, they still fall short next to prepared casters who can reorient on a daily basis. The lack of flexibility should come with a massive increase in power. That isn't present.

Compared to a paladin, the fighter gets next to nothing, while the paladin boosts saves, heals better than second wind (with the option to spend it on the group, has spells, etc. The issue is the fighter chassis is too limited, and kept super basic because it's the dedicated noob class. I would mind less if there were noob classes of other varieties (ie, magical) AND there was a combatant on par with the BO9S, warlord, the Iron Heroes classes, etc.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

They already have "something" though. You are telling us to ignore that & demanding they have more in addition to what they have simply to avoid making use of it. People have already pointed out how Archetypes exist to give them noncombat stuff at level 3 like the samurai & cavalier rather than raw combat features at that level & unlike the other classes fighters could use the level 6 feat for a noncombat "something" or a combat "something after spending the level 4 one on a noncombat "something"

They need both to keep pace with other classes though.

 

[lingual]

Because the game pretends that it works without feats.

And the presence of feats is in control of the DM, not the player. You can't just assume you're going to be able to use the most important customization element in the game because the designers were trying to win over people who were still mad at them after almost two decades.

I'm curious if you all play with feats. If not, do you find the game better?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Most fighters don't get a third or fourth attack either!

most fighters will get action surge, second wind, 1 feat, and 1hp per level over melee casters... some will get 1 use of indomitable and a few will get a 3rd attack

a theoretical 20th level fighter would have 2 attacks per round 3 uses of indomitable 2 feats action surge 2/sr and second wind plus 1 hp per level over a melee caster... many of who will have 1st-9th level spells

That's MMO grinding, and I thought 4E was the video game edition lol.

the secrete is the video gameyness was never the problem...

Second wind is non-scaling garbage.

it's a cool minor thing at low level but more or less forgotten by end game

Action surge is about twice a day effectively with the way people play per WOTC's admission.

yup... so if you compare it to a 1st level wizard with 2 spellslots (or a 2nd level warlock with 2 pact magics) you get about twice you can do your cool thing

Compared to a paladin, the fighter gets next to nothing,

the paliden gets spells, auras, smites, lay on hands... in general is just better

The issue is the fighter chassis is too limited, and kept super basic because it's the dedicated noob class. I would mind less if there were noob classes of other varieties (ie, magical) AND there was a combatant on par with the BO9S, warlord, the Iron Heroes classes, etc.

and that is 100% the gods honest truth

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm curious if you all play with feats. If not, do you find the game better?

I have played with and without (although only ran with) I found it was dumb when leveling up everyone had no choice really at ASI... you improved the stat you wanted to max then went on to the second most wanted...

I would prefer to play without ASI then without feats