A critique and review of the Fighter class

[Bill Zebub]

I just haven’t found the exhaustion to be that punitive. The bonus attack is so potent that I don’t see it as something meant to be used every time you rage: it’s a powerful ability saved for when you really need it. Which, let’s face it, by design often (maybe even usually) comes right before a long rest. Which is something all but the most novice of players become pretty good at judging. And for the times that a long rest isn’t imminent, well, it’s a powerful ability with risk.

The only changes I would make are:
1) You get the bonus attack as part of entering the rage, rather than waiting until the next turn.
2) You can decide to enter the frenzy in a later round.
3) There is a Con saving throw for the exhaustion. Maybe even increasing by 5 each time.


EDIT: Another way of thinking about it is that it could have been written so that you can use frenzy without penalty but only once per long rest, and it still would have been a solid ability. Personally I'd rather have the published version, because I can choose to use it more than that. I wish more abilities were designed with that kind of risk:reward choice, instead of a strict X times/rest.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not every class is exactly what I want it to be, either. Some of them not even close, so I don’t play them.

wow so... no, one should ever talk about what they want more... that is defiantly a choice on a message board.

Seems to me if I really like a few of the classes that’s a victory, and if other people really like other classes, well, that’s a good thing.

and the example is (much like my group) we can only play with all casters or no casters or else some of us get the raw end... so we are complaining about THAT.

I suspect that if every class were designed exactly the way I prefer, the game would be less popular over all.

but I guess you shouldn't express that

 

[Bill Zebub]

wow so... no, one should ever talk about what they want more... that is defiantly a choice on a message board.

and the example is (much like my group) we can only play with all casters or no casters or else some of us get the raw end... so we are complaining about THAT.

but I guess you shouldn't express that

I was going to say something about how tiresome all the hyberbole gets, and also the race to mischaracterize an opposing position as a ridiculous extreme, but really your post demonstrates that more eloquently than I can.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I just haven’t found the exhaustion to be that punitive. The bonus attack is so potent that I don’t see it as something meant to be used every time you rage:

But the bonus attack isn't that potent. It has the serious limitation that it takes a bonus action which means that (a) you can't use it on the turn you rage and (b) a Great Weapon Master fighter (and let's face it most berserkers should take GWM thanks to Reckless) already gets an extra attack as a bonus action on any turn they either kill someone or get a critical hit.

it’s a powerful ability saved for when you really need it. Which, let’s face it, by design often (maybe even usually) comes right before a long rest.

So it's essentially a 1/long rest ability that only actually triggers in the second round of combat and frequently causes a negative play experience in newbies. This would be acceptable if (a) it was made clear in the text and (b) this wasn't the default barbarian subclass.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But the bonus attack isn't that potent. It has the serious limitation that it takes a bonus action which means that (a) you can't use it on the turn you rage and

Yeah you seemed to have deleted the part of my post where I said I didn’t like this part

(b) a Great Weapon Master fighter (and let's face it most berserkers should take GWM thanks to Reckless) already gets an extra attack as a bonus action on any turn they either kill someone or get a critical hit.

Some choices in the game interfere with each other. To balance them around the assumption that they will exist in the same character, in a way that makes them even more powerful on their own, seems like a poor design decision.

I personally save Frenzy for bursting down single large targets…such as bosses,
…against which GWM is much less likely to give you bonus attacks. Then you take a long rest and clear the exhaustion.

So it's essentially a 1/long rest ability that only actually triggers in the second round of combat and frequently causes a negative play experience in newbies. This would be acceptable if (a) it was made clear in the text and (b) this wasn't the default barbarian subclass.

I’m pretty skeptical in general of “we must protect the newbies” arguments. Especially when it conveniently coincides with a position held by the person offering it.

 

[Mort]

I’m pretty skeptical in general of “we must protect the newbies” arguments. Especially when it conveniently coincides with a position held by the person offering it.

It isn't just about "protecting the newbies."

One of the central features of the class is just terrible. It's presented as this big benefit when it isn't even that big and the downside is REALLY significant.

That's worth noting!

 

[Bill Zebub]

It isn't just about "protecting the newbies."

One of the central features of the class is just terrible. It's presented as this big benefit when it isn't even that big and the downside is REALLY significant.

That's worth noting!

Yeah I just haven’t experienced that. But, again, I don’t think of it as something I should get to do every time I rage. I save it for when it’s optimal to use it. And then it’s awesome.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah I just haven’t experienced that. But, again, I don’t think of it as something I should get to do every time I rage. I save it for when it’s optimal to use it. And then it’s awesome.

The point is every subclass of barbarian is designed to boost rage.

WOTC designed the berserker to flurry 50%+ of the times they rage.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The point is every subclass of barbarian is designed to boost rage.

WOTC designed the berserker to flurry 50%+ of the times they rage.

Yes, exactly. Well, maybe not even once a day, depending on circumstances.

Most (all?) of the other subclasses make rage a little bit better every time you use it. Frenzy makes it a lot better, but only some of the time. It’s why it’s written as choice: when you rage you may also go into a frenzy, but it’s optional.

I dunno. I get the sense from the criticisms that people think they should be able to use it every rage. But it’s a straight up 100% bonus to damage at Tier 1, and 50% after that.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, exactly. Well, maybe not even once a day, depending on circumstances.

Most (all?) of the other subclasses make rage a little bit better every time you use it. Frenzy makes it a lot better, but only some of the time. It’s why it’s written as choice: when you rage you may also go into a frenzy, but it’s optional.

I dunno. I get the sense from the criticisms that people think they should be able to use it every rage. But it’s a straight up 100% bonus to damage at Tier 1, and 50% after that.

The criticisms that people think they should be able to use it every rage is that every other barbarian subclass works that way.

It's odd that the easiest class to understand and build was given a complex rage upgrade in their subclass whereas the most complex martial class to build and understand was deem the simple class.

in 90% of VG PRGs the barbarian is the noob class and the "fighter" is a "advanced but not expert" class. D&D feels backwards or old fashioned in that sense. Hey Gramps, we give the axe wielding rageaholic to the new players.

I mean the Barbarian (Paladin, and Ranger) is in the basic rules so there is no need for the fighter to be so simple and bland. Just change flurry and make the Fighter subclass somewhere between the Champion and Battlemaster in complexity. Feels like the fighter was shafted to appeal to the 1% of groups that ban barbarians.