Out with the old (Game design traditions we should let go)

[overgeeked]

Yeah, but reading a book takes an evening at worst, reading my playbook is barely five minutes, and watching even a single TV series is a couple of dozens hours at the low end.

And actually talking to the human being running the game at your table takes even less time.

 

[Aldarc]

Now imagine someone with that level of familiarity at your table running a game of Mexican soap operas for you and your group. You wouldn’t need the game book to teach you the genre. The person with that knowledge at the table could guide you through it.

I was following your argument up until really these sentences. One of the reasons why I am not a fan of running or playing in TTRPGs set in many IPs* - mainly ones with a lot of associated other lore (e.g., novels, comics, television, movies, video games, etc.) - is because I'm not much of a fan of needing "guides" to play through a setting, regardless of how knowledgable those guides (myself included) may be about the setting. Plus, knowledge of a place/setting/genre doesn't make them a good game master any more than being a leading expert in your academic field makes you a good teacher.

* I do have exceptions.

And actually talking to the human being running the game at your table takes even less time.

Maybe, but that's also valuable game time that it eats up.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

And actually talking to the human being running the game at your table takes even less time.

Papa GM, Papa GM! Can you tell us another hour-long story about this genre and its most unique qualities, so that we have proper context when we…

Checking notes…

Oh yes, wait for GM fiat or roll a 2d6 opposed test.

 

[overgeeked]

Papa GM, Papa GM! Can you tell us another hour-long story about this genre and its most unique qualities, so that we have proper context when we…

Checking notes…

Oh yes, wait for GM fiat or roll a 2d6 opposed test.

Are we already back to the “but the game rules protect little old me from the big bad referee” nonsense?

Telenovelas are Mexican soap operas that end. There, now you know the big secret. Weird how that one secret is enough to get people to buy a $45 game book.

Now I want to smash together two Magpie games. Pasión de las Pasiones and Cartel.

 

[Aldarc]

Are we already back to the “but the game rules protect little old me from the big bad referee” nonsense?

Telenovelas are Mexican soap operas that end. There, now you know the big secret. Weird how that one secret is enough to get people to buy a $45 game book.

Now I want to smash together two Magpie games. Pasión de las Pasiones and Cartel.

So if that is the only secret or thing we need to understand about Telenovelas, then what is the value of pretending that the referee has the unrivaled gnostic insight of the genre to guide us through the setting?

 

[overgeeked]

I'm not much of a fan of needing "guides" to play through a setting, regardless of how knowledgable those guides (myself included) may be about the setting.

To successfully play a game in a specific setting and specific genre you have to know about that setting and genre. Your knowledge of the setting and genre has to come from somewhere. Either it’s already in your head from previously engaging with that setting and genre or it has to come from a new outside source.

The game book itself as your guide to the setting and genre…that’s okay.

But the human at the table who’s already running the game as your guide to the setting and genre…that’s not okay.

That makes no sense.

 

[loverdrive]

And actually talking to the human being running the game at your table takes even less time.

Probably no, given that knowledge and ability to effectively relay that knowledge are two very different things.

And given how I can just look at the playbook and the basic moves if I don't know what action would be genre-appropriate, without bothering anyone.

 

[Aldarc]

To successfully play a game in a specific setting and specific genre you have to know about that setting and genre. Your knowledge of the setting and genre has to come from somewhere. Either it’s already in your head from previously engaging with that setting and genre or it has to come from a new outside source.

The game book itself as your guide to the setting and genre…that’s okay.

But the human at the table who’s already running the game as your guide to the setting and genre…that’s not okay.

That makes no sense.

Let me recontextualize it another way. If I am seeking to commune with the Divine, I do not want my sense, knowledge, or experiences of the Divine to be mediated exclusively through a singular priest claiming greater spiritual access or "gnosis" of the Divine. This Gnostic priest may be knowledgable, but I'm willing to fork over $45 to buy a book or two that provides some additional insight about the matter.

 

[overgeeked]

Let me recontextualize it another way. If I am seeking to commune with the Divine, I do not want my sense, knowledge, or experiences of the Divine to be mediated exclusively through a singular priest claiming greater spiritual access or "gnosis" of the Divine. This Gnostic priest may be knowledgable, but I'm willing to fork over $45 to buy a book or two that provides some additional insight about the matter.

That’s hilarious. This knowledge is better than that knowledge because it’s written down and I paid for it. You know that game designers are people, right? They make stuff up and write it down. It’s not superior simply because it’s in a book. The guy who designed the telenovela game could run the game for you without needing the book. But I’d guess you’d say his own book is a better authority on the topic than he is. I mean books are awesome, but come on.

 

[overgeeked]

Probably no, given that knowledge and ability to effectively relay that knowledge are two very different things.

And given how I can just look at the playbook and the basic moves if I don't know what action would be genre-appropriate, without bothering anyone.

Ugh. The answer is not on your character sheet. You’re supposed to be role-playing, i.e. pretending your character is a real person in a real place and making decisions based on that. Not what your character sheet says.

It’s also a bit weird how PbtA keeps getting brought up but people don’t acknowledge that the referee in those games is solely responsible for when the fiction is sufficient to bring in the mechanics of a move.

I still love Spirit of 77 best. Page 13. The only rule you need is the success ladder and 2d6. Everything else is extra.