Spelljammer Dark Sun confirmed? Or, the mysterious case of the dissappearing Spelljammer article...

[QuentinGeorge]

I'm going to preface this with: this is where my opinion is going to come into play. The defiler having a better XP table does not mean the preserver is at a mechanical disadvantage when they are exactly the same as a normal wizard. In my opinion, I just see that as different because just about every class had a different progression.

So I don't see that as a mechanical advantage.

All it really means is defiling gets you power quicker. Preservers take longer, but they can get there, and without any horrific side effects. People remember Dark Sun rules a lot differently to how they actually were.

 

[cbwjm]

Yes, for Darksun. It's the risk free path compared to magic, it is supposed to be limited. Because in Darksun, magic needs to slowly KILL you or turn you evil. Not that WOTC has the guts to dare tell players no, so doubtless Darksun preserving will all be fluff with no mechanical drawbacks.

So like 2e preserving.

 

[Faolyn]

Yes, for Darksun. It's the risk free path compared to magic, it is supposed to be limited. Because in Darksun, magic needs to slowly KILL you or turn you evil. Not that WOTC has the guts to dare tell players no, so doubtless Darksun preserving will all be fluff with no mechanical drawbacks.

Defiling should come with massive social penalties, as well as having lots of anti-defiling people and creatures hunting the defiler down. Those are the mechanical drawbacks. They don't need to get a minus to some rolls to have drawbacks, and if the DM isn't keeping in mind how much people hate and fear defilers, that's not a problem with the system.

 

[Parmandur]

"You can use a musical instrument (see chapter 5, "Equipment") as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells."

The instrument serves as an arcane focus, just like the ones that wizards, sorcerers and warlocks use. It doesn't matter if they can use the other kind. They still have an arcane focus to interact with the arcane magic category.

"You can use a druidic focus (see chapter 5, "Equipment") as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells."

They use a different divine focus than a holy symbol to interact with the divine magic category.

Because........................................................................a focus substitutes for components! If you have the component, you don't as a wizard need an arcane focus to interact with the arcane magic category. And this isn't relevant, since regardless of the existence of components, there are still mechanical rules involving foci and the categories of magic. Components cannot erase that.

Regardless of where the restriction is, it still interacts with the specific category of magic that class uses and no other. If the categories did not exist, any class that can use a focus would be able to use any focus to do it. A wizard could use a holy symbol, a warlock a druid focus, and a druid a wand. That they need a specific focus that only interacts with their category of magic is proof beyond doubt that the categories do exist. Mechanical interactions do not lie.

But there is no overarching "Arcane" or "Divine" categories. No Spell is marked as such, anywhere. Neither are different Class foci grouped together. It's all specific.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm going to preface this with: this is where my opinion is going to come into play. The defiler having a better XP table does not mean the preserver is at a mechanical disadvantage when they are exactly the same as a normal wizard. In my opinion, I just see that as different because just about every class had a different progression.

So I don't see that as a mechanical advantage.

I see what you are saying. This is what I am seeing.

The differing XP tables were for different classes with different abilities. With defilers and preservers, their class abilities are identical. That means that all other things being equal, including encounters and acquired treasures, if both have 15000 XP, the defiler is going to be higher level and have access to more and better abilities. That makes the preserver XP chart a mechanical disadvantage that the apprentice has to look at when deciding which path to take. Faster power or slower power.

 

[Maxperson]

But there is no overarching "Arcane" or "Divine" categories. No Spellis marked as.suxh, anywhere. Neither are different Class foci grouped together. It's all specific.

You can keep repeating that, but the rules are clear. There are mechanics that interact explicitly with arcane magic, but not divine and vice versa. That makes it a fact that these categories exist, regardless of whether it has impact at the spell level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They are bound unless you have a specific exception. A bard cannot pick up a holy symbol and use it as a focus for the cure wounds spell he got for his bard list, even if he is a multiclassed as a cleric. He has to use an arcane focus, since it is an arcane spell for him.

No. He has to use a focus listed in his Spellcasting trait in the Bard class writeup to cast his Bard Spells.

There is no general rule which states that arcane focuses can’t be used to cast divine spells. Those are not categories in 5e, unless you can actually quote rules text saying otherwise.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Preservers and Defilers really can be implemented as the one class, or even as a “behaviour” for arcane casters. Simply make defiling an option for any caster to regain spell slots outside of long rests. Do so, however, and you face the consequences, moral or otherwise.

 

[Parmandur]

You can keep repeating that, but the rules are clear. There are mechanics that interact explicitly with arcane magic, but not divine and vice versa. That makes it a fact that these categories exist, regardless of whether it has impact at the spell level.

Which rules, and where are any spells categorized this way? Class Spell lists are not the same thing, foci are based on Class Spell lists (and those can be broken).

 

[Parmandur]

Preservers and Defilers really can be implemented as the one class, or even as a “behaviour” for arcane casters. Simply make defiling an option for any caster to regain spell slots outside of long rests. Do so, however, and you face the consequences, moral or otherwise.

To be honest, nailing the Preserver/Defiler mechanics in a balanced way while delivering the flavor might be more of a challenge than Psionics.