D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Reynard]

This is something I've been having to slowly coach my players about, in Dungeon World.

Don't tell me you intend to make a roll. Describe what you're doing. Give me actions, thoughts, feelings. If those actions, thoughts, or feelings necessitate a roll, I'll tell you. Otherwise, I am happy to just give you answers.

It's that last bit that I think has done the most good to encourage people to pause on rolling. Well, that and the fact that a bad Discern Realities roll means the party will learn an unwelcome truth! (I never, ever speak falsely about Discern Realities rolls--I may sometimes give incomplete information, without specifically saying so, if the PC doesn't have any way to observe a particular piece of info, but I don't ever state things that are false.)

Since the players know they can learn a lot just by asking about stuff, they feel like they should ask around, show how they're delving into things, and then when their actions trigger a roll, they can make it at that time.

Wait, isn't that the opposite of how PbtA games work. In those games you explicitly state what you want to have happen AND what move you are going to make. Or am I conflating PbtA and FitD?

 

[Reynard]

They are still deciding which skill check they are rolling for.

Players don't decide that by RAW and RIA.

 

[tetrasodium]

I suppose these behaviors can come in a package, but could also appear independently and in other contexts.

I am also too old to understand the pikachu reference.

it's one of the monsters in pokemon. Since it's retty much the go to monster for the series' main character it gets called on all the time. Basically people throw a tennis ball sized object containing a pet monster in stasis & the monster pops out to do battle solve a problem or whatever

Spoiler: like so

These players are the equivalent of a party pokemon solution that exists in some kind of quantum hammerspace state both uninvolved & ready to jump in as most convenient at any time

 

[Maxperson]

They are still deciding which skill check they are rolling for. And they are happy to role-play when dice rolls aren't involved. But when it comes to times when dice rolls are needed, they are at times perfectly content just to let the dice speak for them.

This is the RAW on it, though.

"The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results."

So they attempt an action that has a chance of failure such as climbing a wall or jumping a ravine that is out of normal range. Then the DM calls for a check if there outcome is uncertain and if failure would have meaning(from the DMG on ability checks).

 

[Reynard]

You detect a secret door passively, because the game assumes that PCs are keeping an eye out for secret doors as they wander throughout the dungeon. It doesn't just assume that the PCs happen to search at the one spot where a secret door happens to be and use an average perception roll to passively find it.

No, it does exactly what the rule says: you are searching repeatedly. The "passive" part describes the mechanics -- the average roll is taken -- NOT the in fiction action. There is no textual evidence for your interpretation of "passive" here.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sometimes that works "I want to use rope to prevent the goblin from escaping" and sometimes that doesn't "I want to learn the information I don't know that is important."

You mean like recalling lore? You say what you hope to learn (e.g. “I want to know about religious significance the idol might have”) and where your character might know that information from (e.g. “I think back to my training as an acolyte.”)

I can't tell you what I do to accomplish the goal of finding the thing I don't know is there, I don't know it is there to give you an example.

“Anything of interest” is a perfectly valid thing to search for, as is “danger.” If you really don’t know how to look for something, I have to wonder what would happen if you ever lost your keys or the like.

I also can't do more than say "I think real hard" if I am trying to see if my character has a specific bit of lore or knowledge, because there is no action I can take to "know random trivia"

See above. Just state what you want to know and where your character might have learned it from.

I agree with the point that the DM needs to understand the goal. But if you just walk in the room and the players want to roll perception... you know the goal.

The goal is only half the story; I also need to know the approach.

Just like if you've finished an NPC telling an unbelievable story, and the player asks "Can I roll insight?" I can't possibly tell you what action you could take to figure out if the NPC is holding anything back or lying to you, because any "action" wouldn't be insight. Insight isn't an active process, but I can tell you exactly what the goal of the roll is.

A lie can be thought of as the social equivalent of a trap. In order for the players to react to it, it needs to be telegraphed. So what I would do is describe something “off” about the NPC’s behavior, which indicates to the players that there’s something going on, and gives them something to act on.

 

[Reynard]

I'm of the opinion that's a fancy way of saying "There's a really massive positive modifier here." I'm the same about "You don't need to make a roll to walk across flat ground."

The problem with that interpretation IMO is it implies that negative modifiers could change it when that may not be the case. In the stealth example you can ONLY hide if you have concealment. That's it. That's the rule.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Players don't decide that by RAW and RIA.

But still they do. Are the WotC police going to come and stop them?

 

[Maxperson]

No, it does exactly what the rule says: you are searching repeatedly. The "passive" part describes the mechanics -- the average roll is taken -- NOT the in fiction action. There is no textual evidence for your interpretation of "passive" here.

If you are searching repeatedly, it is impossible to have an average of 10 unless you are also rolling every other number during those checks. The 10 is just used for convenience. Actively looking around if a player states the PC is looking around would give an active perception roll if outcome is in doubt and there is a meaningful chance for failure. A PC looking around actively does not by RAW rely on passive scores, since there is no repetition involved at that moment.

 

[Demetrios1453]

This is the RAW on it, though.

"The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results."

So they attempt an action that has a chance of failure such as climbing a wall or jumping a ravine that is out of normal range. Then the DM calls for a check if there outcome is uncertain and if failure would have meaning(from the DMG on ability checks).

RAW also states that any time the players and DM agree to override RAW, it's perfectly valid for them to do so.