Traveller Social Skills discussion

[Bill Zebub]

I know this sort of thing is a feeling in some circles, but I really find it pretty annoying when it instead turns on my assuming the GM is giving me enough hints with his roleplaying that I can (and will manage) to do so.

Yes, I agree it's hard. And, no, I don’t mean broadcasting it through roleplaying hints.

Too long of a topic for typing on my phone, but basically I think the answer to “Do I think he’s lying?” should always be “It’s your character you tell me.” Unless magic, of course. People suck at detecting lies, especially in strangers. People who think they are good at it (e.g. cops) tend to be even worse.

But I’m an outlier.

 

[dragoner]

Players aren't going to trust NPC's anyways.

"What a fool Honesty is! and Trust, his sworn brother, a very simple gentleman!"
-Shakespeare

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, I agree it's hard. And, no, I don’t mean broadcasting it through roleplaying hints.

Too long of a topic for typing on my phone, but basically I think the answer to “Do I think he’s lying?” should always be “It’s your character you tell me.” Unless magic, of course. People suck at detecting lies, especially in strangers. People who think they are good at it (e.g. cops) tend to be even worse.

But I’m an outlier.

While I agree there are a lot of complexities in skill use here, I'm not actually sold that they're more than in a lot of other things, and I'm very much not sold that its not something some people are better at than others; the fact that Dunning-Kruger applies just as much or more in this area as others doesn't change that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

While I agree there are a lot of complexities in skill use here, I'm not actually sold that they're more than in a lot of other things, and I'm very much not sold that its not something some people are better at than others; the fact that Dunning-Kruger applies just as much or more in this area as others doesn't change that.

I'm basing my view off stuff like this: Deception detection

The basic gist is that you can't "detect lies"; the best strategy is to try to lead a suspect into an inconsistency.

Now, maybe the Insight (or whatever skill the game in question uses) is really a shorthand for, "I use those techniques to try to trap the liar", but...I don't find that interesting. I just don't know what it adds to the game to flip a coin, heads you know the NPC is lying, tails you don't. Don't get me wrong, I've played that way for years (same with "perception checks"), and it's so common in the game that I understand why it might seem strange/unnecessary to question it. But I can't think of a single instance, in my experience, where the outcome of one of those rolls was actually exciting, either before or after the dice were rolled. It's just this mechanical thing we step through. Habit?

I have the same approach to secret doors. Instead of sprinkling them around dungeons, maybe found, maybe not, but no real difference to the story either way, I use them intentionally. If I have a secret door, it's meant to be found. There will be clues there must be a secret door. Once known, there will be clues to where it is. Once found, there will be clues to how to open it. And if you talk to my players, they will have stories about secret doors. "Remember the one under the..."

I think lying NPCs should be handled the same way: if I want something important to hinge off a lying NPC, there will be information available so that the players will have ways to trap the NPC in their lies.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Now, maybe the Insight (or whatever skill the game in question uses) is really a shorthand for, "I use those techniques to try to trap the liar", but...I don't find that interesting. I just don't know what it adds to the game to flip a coin, heads you know the NPC is lying, tails you don't. Don't get me wrong, I've played that way for years (same with "perception checks"), and it's so common in the game that I understand why it might seem strange/unnecessary to question it. But I can't think of a single instance, in my experience, where the outcome of one of those rolls was actually exciting, either before or after the dice were rolled. It's just this mechanical thing we step through. Habit?

Afraid I don't necessarily consider "the result is exciting" a particularly necessary component of the value of a process; sometimes its just to let a player move on to the next step in process or tell them they need to go to a different approach.

I mean the great truth is sometimes a player really doesn't feel the need to go through a production number to solve a subproblem; sometimes they just want to get by it or go a different route. Not everyone finds ever element of (or necessarily any of) an investigation interesting.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I mean the great truth is sometimes a player really doesn't feel the need to go through a production number to solve a subproblem; sometimes they just want to get by it or go a different route. Not everyone finds ever element of (or necessarily any of) an investigation interesting.

Totally fair.

And if that’s the case, why is the subproblem there?

 

[aramis erak]

Greetings,

I am currently running a few groups in Mongoose 2E. I am curious how other refs run situations that attempt to detect dishonesty? I know there is a deception skill, a persuade, diplomacy, etc.. What do you call for to determine if an NPC is lying or untrustworthy? Deception vs deception? Deception vs streetwise? Straight up Int roll? Something else?

I have had a few convos with a player. They seem to think its ruled by the Soc skill, but that doesn't sit right with me. It means that folks who are well off and up on the social standings are just better liars. That a person who is down the ladder is just less naturally inclined to being dishonest? I have been using a combo of Int and streetwise if dealing with somebody nefarious, or perhaps Int and carouse if dealing with somebody from high society. I don't have an issue with being variable and within context of the situation. Its just one spot I haven't quite figured out how to run consistently so far in my Traveller games.

Curious how these things work out in y'alls Traveller games?

Under MT, I use the target's Int as a resistance asset; in other words, 1/5 their int (1/3 in my house rules) is subtracted from the deceiver's persuasion task.

Also, I always roll the task as liar-facing. Almost always impose a mishap when PC's get caught.

I do use soc for the liar if it's a social issue; Edu for most other issues, combined with a relevant skill. Why? Because people tend to believe people in power more than even skilled laymen. (as evidenced by the current sociopolitical situations in the US...)

 

[Thomas Shey]

Totally fair.

And if that’s the case, why is the subproblem there?

Because there's more than one player and/or the GM is not clear about how the player feels about it (and note, how they feel can vary from one time to the next; there are things I don't mind getting in depth with sometimes and others want to move through or around them another).

 

[aramis erak]

Because there's more than one player and/or the GM is not clear about how the player feels about it (and note, how they feel can vary from one time to the next; there are things I don't mind getting in depth with sometimes and others want to move through or around them another).

This effect I've noted as well. I'm tempted to add a Z-card... "I vote to zoom past this encounter in abstraction mode, please." once half are up, time for a roll and move on...

 

[Thomas Shey]

This effect I've noted as well. I'm tempted to add a Z-card... "I vote to zoom past this encounter in abstraction mode, please." once half are up, time for a roll and move on...

Honestly, there are times things are just immensely more interesting to the GM than the players in general, and he can be pretty oblivious about that (I'm starting to think no one but me really wants to have ship combat in my Fragged Empire game...)