D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Parmandur]

I just don't see it as remotely controversial to suggest that WotC books sell a lot because they're the official books. The fact that 5e is so widespread makes their books have higher intrinsic value than a comparable 3pp book, regardless of quality, simply because the barriers to use it (and discuss it) are so much lower.

Sure, absolutely it would sell more than if Kobold Press released it: that doesn't mean that it would sell well.

A book with 4 new classes of popular archetypes would sell more that a player book with few player options in a niche genre.

How is "Harry Potter D&D" in any meaningful way "niche"? And I see no market reason to believe that is true.

i assume the reason they don't mind 3rd parties and the DMs guild is because they want to have us get our hands on things that they don't find it worth publishing...

if 100 people want a redone magic of incarnum wotc doesn't want to waste time and money on it... but If I sold 100 copies on the DMs guild I would be happy

Bingo.

If you make a claim, and then later, when called on the first claim, make a different claim and try to pretend that was what you were claiming all along, that is moving the goalposts. Also, trying to pretend that PHB3 is some obscure splat on the level of MoI is not classy.

At the end of the day, if you do not know much about 4e (or Magic of Incarnum), maybe don't make pronouncements about it on the Internet?

I mean, the PHB3 isn't relevant to how people perceive 4E, because most people wouldn't know about it. I'm sorry, that just how it is. I am just talking core versus core, and the latter splats aren't core. I haven't been bringing in Xanathar's or Tasha's up Jeremy for that reason.

 

[Vaalingrade]

They would not have in the age of the internet

Printers and iPhones don't exist anymore. Got it.

~chugs actually rotten pink sauce sold by tiktokers~

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes and part of the reason WotC has such a huge difference is their ability to read their market and cater to it...

And their wisdom in supporting 3pp and not trying to compete with them.

As much as I’d love a warlord and a swordmage, and I will always advocate for their place in the core, it’s not a bad business decision to leave them for 3pp.

Every licensed rpg that uses 5e gets new people interested in core D&D. Wizards just needs to keep focusing on the core audience, and not try to branch off into super niche stuff that 3pp are going to have the freedom to do right anyway.

 

[Imaro]

I don't agree with this. First, no third party product is going to sell as well as even the worst D&D book put out by WotC. They simply don't have the resources, name recognition or advertising network. Second, third party products have a built in stigma with some people. I know that I personally automatically view them with suspicion, because there's no way that they playtested the material as well as WotC and don't have access to the exact game math. Third, they are mixed in with 10 bazillion other third party products and you have to slog through those products looking for that diamond in the rough.

I'm confused what part you don't agree with. That WotC doesn't feel it's worth the investment?

 

[Maxperson]

I'm confused what part you don't agree with. That WotC doesn't feel it's worth the investment?

Yes. That WotC wouldn't feel that it's worth the investment based on how well a 3rd party product is doing. WotC may very well feel that it's worth the investment, but they have it planned to be announced 18 months from now. The 3rd party guy just got there first. Maybe they didn't even consider the idea until they saw the 3rd party person do it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Good thing letting third parties do better design than the core they're building off of has never come back to bite WotC in particular before.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Printers and iPhones don't exist anymore. Got it.

~chugs actually rotten pink sauce sold by tiktokers~

I think someone beat me to it: the equation changes when there aren’t any alternatives.

Additionally, iPhones last years. I don’t buy a car or iPhone expecting a lifetime of use. Years is acceptable to me. Maybe that is not a common expectation?

My point is this: the core books are all over. Discussions like this are all over. There are alternatives a plenty for the entertainment dollar.

If a game is not well liked and has baggage people will find out in a decade. But sales have increased.

It’s amorphous maybe but people seem to enjoy the feel of 5e. And maybe there are more elegant systems in the marketplace.

It meets a need. There might be cleaner and more “realistic.” No debate there. But what do people want?

I don’t buy the brand loyalty thing past a certain point. It will get you a start but not this. I don’t buy the fact that people just don’t know any better. Don’t the fans know what they want? Why would someone else know better?

So the one remaining hurdle to accepting what seems to be on its face reality is the external shocks to the market. So do i believe COVID and such fully explain 5e success? No.

If we did a multiple regression on sales I am sure we would find a number of variables contribute to the sales. But I think a large chunk of variance is accounted for by people liking this specific edition of the game.

 

[Minigiant]

I think a book with a Summoner class, A Beastmster class, an artificer reprint, a new caster, and a new martial would sell better than most setting books.

Not releasing new classes was a choice to not be beholden to a rapid schedule of the past. But in that choice, they have crawled into getting to many traditional and nontraditional classes, subclasses, monsters, and options.

The "Well the only things worth it for WOTC to publish were published" is a sill argument. By that logic WOTC shouldn't have made TCOE because I designed a horizon walker class on my own. I'm sure many of the official mechanics and products were made by 3PPs before WOTC got to them .

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't think it's particularly controversial to suggest that WotC released too much mechanical material during the 3.5 era, which started to dilute the impact any one book might have had. A "Book of Incarnum" for 5e would almost certainly outsell the 3.5 version.

And yes, even WotC can put something out for 5e and have it not sell if it's poorly targeted. If WotC put out the "Complete Book of Flumphs" as the Winter 2023 hardcover, it's not going to sell anywhere near as well as a Planescape or Dark Sun or a new Magic setting book is.

I just don't see it as remotely controversial to suggest that WotC books sell a lot because they're the official books. The fact that 5e is so widespread makes their books have higher intrinsic value than a comparable 3pp book, regardless of quality, simply because the barriers to use it (and discuss it) are so much lower.

But that doesn’t mean, even if we just accept it without question, that wizards is losing money by not trying to put out every single thing that any noticeable number of people want.

Not only do they take 1/2 with DMsGuild, but even the products they don’t get a cut of grow the market, which grows D&D. They’re symbiotic.

 

[TwoSix]

But that doesn’t mean, even if we just accept it without question, that wizards is losing money by not trying to put out every single thing that any noticeable number of people want.

Not only do they take 1/2 with DMsGuild, but even the products they don’t get a cut of grow the market, which grows D&D. They’re symbiotic.

Oh, absolutely. My only point is that WotC books sell because they're part of a broader ecosystem built around official material, their sales numbers do not indicate a referendum that WotC books are obviously higher quality than comparable 3pp material, as some previous posts seemed to allude to.