D&D General "I make a perception check."

[tetrasodium]

For sure. Not my style, as to me the player skill element is part of what makes it a game. You wouldn’t want to remove player skill from Chess, or Catan, or 40K, or Football. So it’s weird to me to want to remove it from D&D. But, a lot of D&D players do, and that’s fine. They’re welcome to do that in their own games. Without me.

I don't know if you encounter the same or not but IME the players who chafe most under being required/expected to describe what their character does to accomplish something are the ones who metaphorically hold up their palm & look away ignoring everything not directly involving them when it's not their turn.

 

[Charlaquin]

For me, player skill certainly comes first.

There are a few primary (and related issues) that arise for me:

1. Few players have the intellect to figure things out their INT 18+ PC might.
2. Few players can role-play their CHA 18+ PC well enough to justify what their PC should be able to do.
3. Some players are much more intelligent than their INT 8 PC is, but they play their PC like a very intelligent creature.
And so forth.

Under such circumstances, I allow rolls to help players who can't match their PCs, and FORCE rolls when the players are out-performing the expectations of their PCs.

Some people might find that heavy-handed, but if you have a dump stat, then PLAY it!

Personally, I am not a fan of trying to use rules to “fix” these sorts of discrepancies. Setting aside any issues with trying to quantify intelligence, I just think rules like this are ultimately futile. You can only come up with ideas you can come up with, and you can’t actually make decisions without accounting for information you do actually have access to.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't know if you encounter the same or not but IME the players who chafe most under being required/expected to describe what their character does to accomplish something are the ones who metaphorically hold up their palm & look away ignoring everything not directly involving them when it's not their turn.

That’s a direction I would rather this conversation not go down. I don’t want the thread to get locked. But, no, that’s not a correlation I have observed myself.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Personally, I am not a fan of trying to use rules to “fix” these sorts of discrepancies. Setting aside any issues with trying to quantify intelligence, I just think rules like this are ultimately futile. You can only come up with ideas you can come up with, and you can’t actually make decisions without accounting for information you do actually have access to.

I can certainly understand that view.

But, for example, in the case of a player with an INT 18+ PC. If the player(s) can't figure out how to solve a puzzle or riddle, I'll then default to allowing them to roll for their PC, which is likely "smarter" in that sense.

I know many people seem to find it in poor taste to quantify such things, but personally it doesn't bother me in the least and removes frustration when players falter.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

For me, player skill certainly comes first.

There are a few primary (and related issues) that arise for me:

1. Few players have the intellect to figure things out their INT 18+ PC might.
2. Few players can role-play their CHA 18+ PC well enough to justify what their PC should be able to do.
3. Some players are much more intelligent than their INT 8 PC is, but they play their PC like a very intelligent creature.
And so forth.

Under such circumstances, I allow rolls to help players who can't match their PCs, and FORCE rolls when the players are out-performing the expectations of their PCs.

Some people might find that heavy-handed, but if you have a dump stat, then PLAY it!

For me, players can play their PCs however they like. I have enough DM duties on my plate, IMO, and I don't wish to add enforcing roleplaying "to the stats". When ability checks are called for, however, those with high bonuses will be rewarded, over time, while those with low bonuses... {sad trombone} not so much.

 

[Charlaquin]

I can certainly understand that view.

But, for example, in the case of a player with an INT 18+ PC. If the player(s) can't figure out how to solve a puzzle or riddle, I'll then default to allowing them to roll for their PC, which is likely "smarter" in that sense.

I know many people seem to find it in poor taste to quantify such things, but personally it doesn't bother me in the least and removes frustration when players falter.

I get what you mean with like logic puzzles, for example. Personally, as a player I always find “roll to see if you solve the puzzle” moments intensely dissatisfying. I would rather just not include such puzzles at all than abstract them to that degree.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For me, players can play their PCs however they like. I have enough DM duties on my plate, IMO, and I don't wish to add enforcing roleplaying "to the stats". When ability checks are called for, however, those with high bonuses will be rewarded, over time, while those with low bonuses... {sad trombone} not so much.

If rolls take precedence over role-playing, I agree, but often more people like it to go other way around IME.

FWIW, I rarely have to be very forceful of such things, and I explain that to new players upfront. Your character has limitations as well as strengths--to play D&D well, IMO, you play BOTH.

 

[iserith]

1. Few players have the intellect to figure things out their INT 18+ PC might.
2. Few players can role-play their CHA 18+ PC well enough to justify what their PC should be able to do.

Few DMs will even run a game where that kind of intelligence or charisma is required of a player to be successful.

3. Some players are much more intelligent than their INT 8 PC is, but they play their PC like a very intelligent creature.

That's not anything for me to care about as DM.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I get what you mean with like logic puzzles, for example. Personally, as a player I always find “roll to see if you solve the puzzle” moments intensely dissatisfying. I would rather just not include such puzzles at all than abstract them to that degree.

I like to give them the chance for such things, but if it becomes frustrating I'll offer hints, and default to rolling only as a last resort.

They are only part of the game when (according to the narrative of the world) they should be.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's not anything for me to care about as DM.

So, you don't enforce players who dump stats?

No concerns about STR 8 PC and how much they can carry? And so forth...?

If you don't, that's perfectly fine, but if you do I find it odd you would enforce one dump stat but not others...