Pathfinder 2E How is Pathfinder doing?

[payn]

Yeah, I suspect (though I could be being uncharitable) that at least some of the critics wouldn't consider PF2e a success unless it sold as well compared to D&D as it PF1e did at its peak. That this is patently unreasonable they don't understand, don't care about about, or don't accept.

As I've noted before, when assessing the success of an RPG, you really should be pulling D&D out of the comparison before you start, and that's probably been true since 1975, barring a couple aberrational periods.

Its true, being able to compete with WotC during 4E/PF1 put Paizo on this whole other level. Folks have very different standards of what success means for them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Its true, being able to compete with WotC during 4E/PF1 put Paizo on this whole other level. Folks have very different standards of what success means for them.

Yeah, but as I've noted any number of times, that had to do with a very controversial edition change, and Paizo being able to, essentially, keep publishing the prior edition. Its an event that happened to D&D maybe twice in its lifespan, when the publisher was having particular trouble with D&D for one reason or another.

So in the end, its dependent on WOTC dropping the ball seriously (something that for all the fact I don't think much of 5e at all they are not doing), not anything Paizo does or can do.

 

[darjr]

So apparently it’s been an explosive year of growth and Pathfinder holds the second spot

ICv2 Reports On RPGs Growth This Year

ICv2 has published its latest quarterly hobby channel game rankings for Spring 2022. The Top 5 contains D&D twice (once from WotC, and once from third parties Goodman Games and Darrington Press/Critical Role), along with two licensed Hasbro (owner of WotC) properties, plus Pathfinder. "RPGs are...

www.enworld.org

I’ve kinda held back posting any kind of numbers for pathfinder because it always seems to attract negative takes even when sense seems to counter them, but here we go. This is great news for Pathfinder as a product and brand.

 

[payn]

So apparently it’s been an explosive year of growth and Pathfinder holds the second spot

ICv2 Reports On RPGs Growth This Year

ICv2 has published its latest quarterly hobby channel game rankings for Spring 2022. The Top 5 contains D&D twice (once from WotC, and once from third parties Goodman Games and Darrington Press/Critical Role), along with two licensed Hasbro (owner of WotC) properties, plus Pathfinder. "RPGs are...

www.enworld.org

I’ve kinda held back posting any kind of numbers for pathfinder because it always seems to attract negative takes even when sense seems to counter them, but here we go. This is great news for Pathfinder as a product and brand.

G.I. Joe in 4th

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, there's always room for people to not like the source in one direction or another. I tend to find VTT numbers kind of questionable on various grounds, so I can't really talk.

 

[Justice and Rule]

So apparently it’s been an explosive year of growth and Pathfinder holds the second spot

ICv2 Reports On RPGs Growth This Year

ICv2 has published its latest quarterly hobby channel game rankings for Spring 2022. The Top 5 contains D&D twice (once from WotC, and once from third parties Goodman Games and Darrington Press/Critical Role), along with two licensed Hasbro (owner of WotC) properties, plus Pathfinder. "RPGs are...

www.enworld.org

I’ve kinda held back posting any kind of numbers for pathfinder because it always seems to attract negative takes even when sense seems to counter them, but here we go. This is great news for Pathfinder as a product and brand.

Says softer numbers, but ICv2 has Spring as January-April and the biggest book that released in that time from was Book of the Dead... which came out April 27th. I'd wager they are in for a bigger Summer season.

 

[ReshiIRE]

Sounds fun, when we played flanking was suicide. You might get a nice +2-4 hit bonus for one round, but are dropped by crit or three direct hits the next round. It just gets worse from there. Note: the game I played awas a steady diet of +3APL encounters so it was hell.

That is nuts. I have not played or ran Pathfinder 2e yet (I would love to!), but from all the stuff I have read online and from reading the DMM and encounter builder, +3 encounters should be pretty rare. Like, what, maybe at teh end of a major plot point? Or as a huge, might have to run away challenge? Something that would happen more likely in the back half of the levels, as a challenge?

If I were to run the game, I would mostly be operating with +1s with lesser support most of the time, with +2 for bigger moments, with +3s being end of storyline or major, major things... and what, maybe a +4 as the campaign closer / "please, for the love of god, DON'T FIGHT THIS!!" type encounter?

That doesn't even make the game easier but IMO would just suit the experiences and what people expect more.

That, and I'd probably run mostly low and moderate encounters, some trivial for a laugh, with severesonly for big moments and extremes as the final boss. It just feels to me how the game should be ran to get that mixture of tactical stuff without feeling like you're playing a video game on hard mode without saves.

 

[Retreater]

That is nuts.

Yeah, but that is following the design of the official Adventure Path. The one @payn is referencing is Abomination Vaults, which was supposedly after Paizo got their "encounter math figured out" - but it was still very difficult. Other official paths I ran (Age of Ages & Extinction Curse) were downright sadistic.
And I understand wanting thrilling and challenging combats - but not around every corner!
I did an encounter breakdown for the first book of Extinction Curse to share with my group (shortly after they rebelled from the system).

• Trivial encounters: 1 of 49 (around 1%)
• Low encounters: 11 of 49 (around 22%)
• Moderate encounters: 28.5 of 49 (around 58%) [the "0.5" is because one encounter can be considered Moderate or Severe depending on factors.]
• Severe encounters: 8.5 of 49 (around 17%) [the "0.5" is because one encounter can be considered Moderate or Severe depending on factors.]

So that means that 58% of the fights are pretty darned hard and can get scary. But that 17% severe you'd better be ready. Many times they hit you with no warning, and that's when it's exhausting as a player.
Unless Paizo has significantly changed how they design official adventures, I can say they are inappropriate for the challenges I like to present.

 

[payn]

Yeah, but that is following the design of the official Adventure Path. The one @payn is referencing is Abomination Vaults, which was supposedly after Paizo got their "encounter math figured out" - but it was still very difficult. Other official paths I ran (Age of Ages & Extinction Curse) were downright sadistic.
And I understand wanting thrilling and challenging combats - but not around every corner!
I did an encounter breakdown for the first book of Extinction Curse to share with my group (shortly after they rebelled from the system).

• Trivial encounters: 1 of 49 (around 1%)
• Low encounters: 11 of 49 (around 22%)
• Moderate encounters: 28.5 of 49 (around 58%) [the "0.5" is because one encounter can be considered Moderate or Severe depending on factors.]
• Severe encounters: 8.5 of 49 (around 17%) [the "0.5" is because one encounter can be considered Moderate or Severe depending on factors.]

So that means that 58% of the fights are pretty darned hard and can get scary. But that 17% severe you'd better be ready. Many times they hit you with no warning, and that's when it's exhausting as a player.
Unless Paizo has significantly changed how they design official adventures, I can say they are inappropriate for the challenges I like to present.

I think some Paizo folks have talked about this, maybe even James Jacobs, about saving Severe/Extreme for boss end cap fights. Moving into more Moderate and Low encounters in the APs in general going forward.

I will say, as a veteran of these RPGs, I can tell pretty quick when a fight is severe/extreme and start to get nervous and ready to call a retreat when you know you are outmatched.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, but that is following the design of the official Adventure Path. The one @payn is referencing is Abomination Vaults, which was supposedly after Paizo got their "encounter math figured out" - but it was still very difficult. Other official paths I ran (Age of Ages & Extinction Curse) were downright sadistic.

Age of Ashes is tough in spots, but its not a constant run of +3 encounters. That's in a whole different class.