Pathfinder 2E How is Pathfinder doing?

[payn]

I'm sorry it was a bad experience.
What would you want in a PF2 game?

Oh, it was a trial run for all of us. I would like to try again sometime, maybe something a little less press your luck than a megadungeon campaign.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Oh, it was a trial run for all of us. I would like to try again sometime, maybe something a little less press your luck than a megadungeon campaign.

For uh unrelated reasons, may I ask what timezone you're in and when you like to schedule games?

 

[payn]

For uh unrelated reasons, may I ask what timezone you're in and when you like to schedule games?

I am in Minneapolis on the CDT time zone. Thursdays and Saturdays are no good, but I might be able to make appointments on other nights of the week. If EN worlders are thinking of doing something online here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sounds fun, when we played flanking was suicide. You might get a nice +2-4 hit bonus for one round, but are dropped by crit or three direct hits the next round. It just gets worse from there. Note: the game I played awas a steady diet of +3APL encounters so it was hell.

That explains a lot.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I am in Minneapolis on the CDT time zone. Thursdays and Saturdays are no good, but I might be able to make appointments on other nights of the week. If EN worlders are thinking of doing something online here.

I've got a pf2e west marches on a discord server that we're thinking about recruiting for, it IS a sandbox buuuuuuuut it might still be a better fit, has player scheduling, openings are usually 7ish on saturday/sunday EST. Explicitly LGBTQ+ friendly (but plenty of non-players as well) honestly I wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to ask me for our application.

 

[JThursby]

I've got a pf2e west marches on a discord server that we're thinking about recruiting for, it IS a sandbox buuuuuuuut it might still be a better fit, has player scheduling, openings are usually 7ish on saturday/sunday EST. Explicitly LGBTQ+ friendly (but plenty of non-players as well) honestly I wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to ask me for our application.

I'll throw my hat into the ring, if only to get a reprieve from being a forever-GM. If/when you start recruiting people go ahead and PM me the discord invite.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Dedicated Healing or Champion's Reaction or Shield Block generally fixes that up, since they can undo a lot of the damage, that's what our parties tend to do.

Though as someone who played a Redeemer/Bard hybrid, you can run into problems in late game when you're fighting bigger monsters where while flanking, you're too far to trigger Glimpse of Redemption.

 

[dirtypool]

I mean, the Sagamore Ballroom was divided this year (with a third of it going to 40K lasertag). So what you're seeing is a fraction of the interest from GenCons at least 5 years ago.

At a GenCon still slightly contracted from pre Pandemic years, that still doesn’t tell us much. An anecdote and an anecdote don’t fall in love and birth a baby fact. Paizo’s reduced presence in the Ballroom may have very little to do with interest, it could be a decision based on the success of running some games virtually alongside their presentation last year. Without discussing it, with Paizo to understand their decision making you’re just making an assumption

It was disheartening to see stacks of Dark Archive sitting there on Sunday after seeing Free League and Zweihander selling out of entire product ranges.

Did you spend all day with eyes on that stack of books? Did you see it enough and frequently that you can rule out any restocks? Without that kind of observation, we’re again into assumption territory.

But I think that when people say "it's going as strong as ever" and then I see the event space one-third the size of the last time I went - that tells me that "in practice" there are some issues.

That is the assumption you make, but it may not necessarily be reality. My whole point in these exchanges are that you often present gut reactions without a whole lot of context to support them. It’s okay to be concerned, it’s maybe less so when you keep asserting that anyone providing information to counter your concerns is wrong

As fans, should we promote it more? Do they need more PFS GMs at events?

Let them decide what they need, hang back, play the game and support it in whatever way you choose. Enjoy yourself m.

 

[JmanTheDM]

Honestly? To many people, its when they're doing as well or better than their peak. Which is an unreasonable expectation.

numbers are a funny thing.

do note, nothing below is, can be, or will be backed up by "facts". its only an example. likely a bad one . I like using bad examples!

in the before times, if WOTC sold 8,000 units of X and paizo sold 1,000 units of Y, WOTC could rightfully claim to be the biggest seller.
Then, WOTC announces that X shall, at some future date release X version 2. as word gets out, sales of X version 1 decline from 8,000 units sold to 800 units sold ('cause, why buy a DOA X amirite?). Paizo continues to sell at their normal clip of 1,000 units. now, suddenly, Paizo can announce that they are #1. this is true, though there is no change in volumes sold.

Fast forward, Wotc X version 2 "blows up" and becomes the new hotness and a global sensation. X version 2 sales go from their "low" of 800 to 40,000. Paizo continues to sell at their normal clip of 1,000. Wotc is now the dominant leader with all others a far distant 2nd. and yet, Paizo continues to do "just fine" relative to their past performances and trends. Presumably their business model is predicated on selling 1,000 units so they are not in any way "in jeopardy" relative to their business plans and shareholder expectations.

if as many suggest, rising tides raise all boats and Paizo sees their product Y sales increase from their historical 1,000 units to 1,200 units - a modest increase when compared to Wotc, is still from Paizo's POV, "selling better than any product before".

I get the human need to compare 1 thing against another as a benchmark for success - but while products "compete" with each other, not every product must (or wants) to compete head-on using marketshare as their only metric. Rolex has no interest in selling more units than Timex - though they both sell "watches", some could argue that because Rolex doesn't out-sell Timex, they must be doing worse. Everyone would laugh at that - because its pretty obvious that their entire business model is entirely different from each other.

This is a case, IMO, where observing actions - and any changes in their actions - may be a stronger health indicator than any stat released by VTT or ICV2 counts. Has release schedules changed? quality of product? fan engagement (via conventions or organized play)? observable downward trends for staffing metrics (head count, contractor hours, Salary, etc)? quantity and quality of book art? quality of book production? those all are likely better leading indicators of a companies "health" than with a zero-sum market share mindset.

but that's just me

Cheers,

J.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, I suspect (though I could be being uncharitable) that at least some of the critics wouldn't consider PF2e a success unless it sold as well compared to D&D as it PF1e did at its peak. That this is patently unreasonable they don't understand, don't care about about, or don't accept.

As I've noted before, when assessing the success of an RPG, you really should be pulling D&D out of the comparison before you start, and that's probably been true since 1975, barring a couple aberrational periods.