Pathfinder 2E How is Pathfinder doing?

[Thomas Shey]

Not my intent. I've sincerely attempted to run the game numerous times and asked for advice. I've put out promotional effort to start a local 2e PFS game. I've tried to encourage friends and strangers to play it.
I guess my posts reflect the constant frustration I feel trying to get this game accepted in my circles. Perhaps my experience is atypical? Perhaps I'm finding signs of the game's lack of success where there are none? Maybe that's my frustration coming out: because if it's doing so well, why can't I get a game going, why do the books sit on the shelves of my local store, and (most fundamentally) what could I do about it?
But I guess I shouldn't be concerned about this. My posts about this topic are not welcome here. They're either bringing people down or met with snark and outright insults.

Honestly, the great truth is you have two things in play: 1. Its always hard these days to get random people to play anything but the D&D proper because its, well, D&D; 2. You seem to have had a really severe lack of luck in finding people interested in doing tactical engagement, and short of the thing mentioned where you deliberately low-ball encounters, that's just not going to work well with PF2e. The "just plow through the opposition" player (and they're not rare) is just not the market its aimed at.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sometimes I think them surpassing WotC in sales for a product line did them a disservice.

I kind of agree; it makes people incessantly compare them to the game that not only does no one else beat, almost no one else is more than a rounding error to, because in one specific time frame they were able to take advantage of an unusual series of events to (briefly) surge ahead.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah. I mean, Spring 2022 ICv2 numbers are out and it's still #2, with Goodman Games (EDIT) and Darrington Press (the Critical Role expansions) behind it in the third spot and the releases of Power Rangers and GI Joe behind those. What arbitrary measure of success do we have to reach where Paizo is doing "good" at this point?

Honestly? To many people, its when they're doing as well or better than their peak. Which is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I have heard about this stacking debuff type of game, and it sounds awesome, but its not what I have experienced from PF2. It usually one out of 4 or more players succeeding (marginally) on the things they want to do, and everybody else failing because the enemies defenses are too strong. So, this cascade of boons never materializes.

It depends a little bit on party, but pretend you've got a Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Thief (Rogue), and a Bard

The Fighter and Rogue (and/or Cleric depending on doctrine) will generally flank, leading to a +2 to their attacks, this also provides multiple targets to soak the boss's damage, let's say the Wizard casts Fear and the boss succeeds the throw, you've got +3 to their attacks due to the frightened condition, the bard uses inspire courage and its up to +4 for their attacks, a whopping 20% shift in hit/crit chance. I didn't mention the Cleric because they might be focused on healing after the boss monster's turn, but in theory they could be providing the +1 status bonus through bless or guidance or casting fear themselves so its flexible depending on how initiative and space worked out and what everyone wants to do, but the only boss dependent move out of what I just mentioned is the fear spell, which it needs to crit succeed against to not let the party get all the way up to +4.

There are a lot of other effective combos, but this is just a 'classic DND' example of how to get to a +4 attack bonus, but there's lots of stuff:

I have a Gunslinger who loves to use this feat since aid doesn't target enemy AC, and since Aid is a circumstance bonus, it stacks with the other buffs I mentioned. In another game I had a Barbarian with a free demoralize. In another game we had a Flurry Ranger with Alchemist Dedication and Dread Ampoule. A witch I'm playing currently conserves resources by throwing Guidance on people until she needs to heal. I played a Wizard that used this to punish AOO users with debuffs and offload the action economy to make more room for blasting.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Honestly? To many people, its when they're doing as well or better than their peak. Which is an unreasonable expectation.

They already are according to them, specifically the TTRPG market is just that much bigger now that they can be doing far and away the best they ever have been.

 

[payn]

It depends a little bit on party, but pretend you've got a Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Thief (Rogue), and a Bard

The Fighter and Rogue (and/or Cleric depending on doctrine) will generally flank, leading to a +2 to their attacks, this also provides multiple targets to soak the boss's damage, let's say the Wizard casts Fear and the boss succeeds the throw, you've got +3 to their attacks due to the frightened condition, the bard uses inspire courage and its up to +4 for their attacks, a whopping 20% shift in hit/crit chance. I didn't mention the Cleric because they might be focused on healing after the boss monster's turn, but in theory they could be providing the +1 status bonus through bless or guidance or casting fear themselves so its flexible depending on how initiative and space worked out and what everyone wants to do, but the only boss dependent move out of what I just mentioned is the fear spell, which it needs to crit succeed against to not let the party get all the way up to +4.

There are a lot of other effective combos, but this is just a 'classic DND' example of how to get to a +4 attack bonus, but there's lots of stuff:

I have a Gunslinger who loves to use this feat since aid doesn't target enemy AC, and since Aid is a circumstance bonus, it stacks with the other buffs I mentioned. In another game I had a Barbarian with a free demoralize. In another game we had a Flurry Ranger with Alchemist Dedication and Dread Ampoule. A witch I'm playing currently conserves resources by throwing Guidance on people until she needs to heal. I played a Wizard that used this to punish AOO users with debuffs and offload the action economy to make more room for blasting.

Sounds fun, when we played flanking was suicide. You might get a nice +2-4 hit bonus for one round, but are dropped by crit or three direct hits the next round. It just gets worse from there. Note: the game I played awas a steady diet of +3APL encounters so it was hell.

 

[Campbell]

Sounds fun, when we played flanking was suicide. You might get a nice +2-4 hit bonus for one round, but are dropped by crit or three direct hits the next round. It just gets worse from there. Note: the game I played awas a steady diet of +3APL encounters so it was hell.

Damn. I definitely would not want to play in game with encounters that hard all the time.

 

[payn]

Damn. I definitely would not want to play in game with encounters that hard all the time.

I think it skewed my perception of the game big time. Im hoping to try again with the exception of not playing a megadungeon and/or sandbox.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Dedicated Healing or Champion's Reaction or Shield Block generally fixes that up, since they can undo a lot of the damage, that's what our parties tend to do.

 

[Retreater]

I think it skewed my perception of the game big time. Im hoping to try again with the exception of not playing a megadungeon and/or sandbox.

I'm sorry it was a bad experience.
What would you want in a PF2 game?