D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

[GMforPowergamers]

I mean, look, if eight people are trying to seduce me-

--then you might be the protagonist of a harem anime.

I want to know what type of D&D games you are playing...

also I might want in if you have an open slot

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have no firm evidence either way, but I wonder if this might be more palatable if the game had a set of social conditions to match the physical ones. Technically, we already have one, the Frightened condition.

While players don't want to be told what their character does, if there were a specific set of conditions that could be imposed which have well defined mechanical effects, that might play out better at the table.

If you want to go that way, Charmed could also count as a social status (provided it can be applied through mundane means and not just enchantment spells).

could we make more... could bamboozeled and confused and coned all be in there too somewhere?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I feel these examples are actually a good starting point when thinking about a system for social "combat" - all of these people have some sort of leverage over you,

lol I don't know if you said that on purpose but there was/is a TV show called Leverage that pretty much is 80% social combat

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a spinoff of the astoundingly long lived "I roll perception" thread:

I don't mind D&D social encounters being about players presenting ideas to NPCs and GMs deciding how that goes with maybe a persuasion roll involved or whatever, but I actually like the idea of full on "social combat" system just as intricate and tactically satisfying as the physical combat one. There would be positions taken, and angles of rhetorical attack, and specific maneuvers and even social specific magic, all dedicated to winnowing down "Resolve" or "Social Hit Points" to find out who won.

I tried a rough design once with a courtly intrigue adventure in an otherwise standard D&D campaign and a couple players completely balked -- especially the one playing the face (who felt like the system undermined his high Charisma and high Persuasion skill).

How do you feel about "social combat" in D&D? Do you think any edition of D&D has gotten social encounters "right"? Are there and 3rd party things (for any edition) that you think work for "social combat"? Am I just looking for a way to play "Ace Attorney" in D&D?

I would say your Face player was absolutely right to be worried, because D&D is a RNG-heavy game, and if your system involved significant rolling, he was not going to do well.

All the games I can think of that do "social combat" successfully fit one of two models:

1) Dice pool or similar RNG-killers - All the WoD games for example. When you're using large dice pools, RNG is generally much less of an issue. A character invested in their role is almost always going to roll decently.

2) PtbA/BitD/Resistance-type mechanics where it's more about "success at a cost" and where there may well be meta-resources to override RNG, and where the consequences of success/failure are better-defined and less binary than D&D.

D&D 5E uses a high RNG-system without a net (i.e. no Take 10 or Take 20), which means that, very often, heavily-invested Faces (max CHA they can have, as proficient as they possibly can be in social skills) still absolutely constantly miserably fail their rolls. You roll a 2, and doesn't matter that you have a +9, you didn't make that 15 DC. The Barbarian who dumpstatted CHA and has no social skills rolls a 16 and he succeeds it. Only Eloquence Bards level 3 and above, and Rogue Faces level 11 and above don't face this issue, because of Reliable Talent.

No edition of D&D has done great here. D&D is just too RNG-oriented.

If you wanted to design a system that worked better, I'd suggest starting by adding "Passive Persuasion" (and Deception/Intimidation), i.e. modifier + 10, and using this as the basis of your system, and if any rolls were being made, making it easy for more-invested characters to get access to re-rolls, Advantage, and so on. You also need to decide what to do with Help, because if it's allowed all the time, it's easy to have perma-Advantage on social stuff, which is absolutely fine, but is something to consider.

 

[MarkB]

So, I haven't bought it myself and don't know the detail of its system, but I think it's worth mentioning Doctors and Daleks here, as it is a current 5e hack that attempts to roll social combat into its regular conflict resolution system.

 

[Reynard]

So, I haven't bought it myself and don't know the detail of its system, but I think it's worth mentioning Doctors and Daleks here, as it is a current 5e hack that attempts to roll social combat into its regular conflict resolution system.

That's interesting.

 

[Bill Zebub]

until they use the word magic...

when a succubus or vampire effects your mind you will have no issue playing out that all of a sudden the character's mind changed.

Yup. No contradiction there.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I often wonder what those players do when they fail a save vs a fear spell

Umm…follow the rules of the game? And have fun doing it?

Why does this (apparently) seem contradictory to you?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yup. No contradiction there.

Umm…follow the rules of the game? And have fun doing it?

Why does this (apparently) seem contradictory to you?

because when you say they will follow the rules of the game... but they say they would NOT follow rules that had less magical charm and frighten effects.

It's a weird key word problem... "Your character fears and moves away from this character" "Wait how?" "magic..." Oh okay"
change the word magic to psychic... no problem... change it to skill and see what happens.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

because when you say they will follow the rules of the game... but they say they would NOT follow rules that had less magical charm and frighten effects.

It's a weird key word problem... "Your character fears and moves away from this character" "Wait how?" "magic..." Oh okay"
change the word magic to psychic... no problem... change it to skill and see what happens.

What's funny here is that Pathfinder 1E, a game beloved by the very sort of people who are appalled in the way you're describing, absolutely DOES let you cause all sorts of serious on-battlefield effects with social skills with the right Feats. For example: Dazzling Display (Combat) – d20PFSRD