D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

[GMforPowergamers]

Three things :

1. D&D is largely a cooperative game of overcoming adventures or dungeon delving as a cohesive group. Binding social mechanics do not really serve the game's purpose very well.

but again running a PC or NPC conman/grifter works great in the story of some adventures, but no in the mechanics of the game

1. Social mechanics should reflect some insight on how actual human beings like interact with each other. They should also have fictional positioning requirements. To affect someone it should make sense that there is some underlying susceptibility to that influence. This is how the vast majority of social mechanics I have interacted with work.

I don't know for sure how you run things, but the current raw does NOT reflect insight on how actual human beings like interact with each other.

1. Intricate social systems that function like D&D combat does are lame. I get really tired of having all these examples of games with lame, uninspired social mechanics getting brought up every time this topic comes up. It's not like Exalted Second Edition has any good mechanics.

wasn't Exalted brought up as a bad example not a good one...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What sort of consequences? If some random stranger is trying to persuade my PC to do something he would never do and my PC loses, what sort of bad thing happens and why?

I don't know why every example of this not working is because some pig farmer you never met wants to mind control you... that isn't how con/grifters work in real life, and I am fine with that not being how they work in game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That isn't what I'm getting from some of the people posting on the pro-social combat side of things.

I haven't seen anyone other than you bringing up random NPCs socially attacking the players, so I'm not sure where you got the idea from. Everyone whose been actually putting forth the idea that a social combat system is workable has made it entirely based on the player's initiating it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I agree persuasion isn't mind control.

Jonestown: Thousands of people committed mass suicide after leaving their homes, their family, and devoting their lives to the words of a single man. They killed their own children, on his order.

How many Demagogues have turned peaceful nations to war and bloodshed?

Persuasion isn't mind control, but where is the line? At what point is the line between the two?

exactly

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something about how Exalted's system is broken, because the best way to convince someone of something was to follow them, badger them incessantly about doing impossible or stupid things, until you'd finally worn them down enough they'd just say yes to anything. We all know that would actually work in real life, right? If you had someone who you couldn't get away from, you badgered you day in and day out, hour after hour, demanding things of you don't you think eventually (if you didn't snap and attack them) that they would say something that sounded reasonable, sounded like something you could do, and you would want to do it so they would GO AWAY.

I mean what you just described is why we don't let cops keep you locked up for 3 days interrogating you.., because we figured out that if even a few hours of brow beating happened average people would confess to crimes that they didn't do.

You say no PC could convince Caesar not to invade Gaul? Well no mortal man can rip apart an adamantium door... except a raging level 20 barbarian could actually do that. No mortal man could withstand the Chromatic Flames of an Avatar of Tiamat. but a level 20 Rogue is going to walk away without a scorch mark on them.

I mean the problem is without magic there are tons of things real life people can do no one in this game can. But yeah there are also things that happen that are WAY more... I mean imagine someone standing and getting hit by 3 arrows, and walking it off like it was nothing... now realize 3d8+3 averages to 18 damage and most 3rd level characters can get hit by 3 arrows walk into town (no short rest) and do anything they could do at full hp...

Persuasion isn't mind control, I agree, but it is still VERY powerful, especially when wielded by figures of myth and legend, especially when we can see how devastating and terrible it can be in the real world.

this

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So why set DCs and roll? Just describe the scene. Players who want to play along and act intimidated will do so, others won't.

Now, maybe the players find it a helpful roleplaying cue to use the dice. That's cool. But that is a totally made-up use of the dice, outside the rules of 5e. I have zero problem with things like that. I do have a problem with any argument that this is somehow how 5e is supposed to be played.

I mean the same reason I don't say "The dragon breaths out a gout of flame trying to incinerate you... now tell me if it hurts your character"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I haven't seen anyone other than you bringing up random NPCs socially attacking the players, so I'm not sure where you got the idea from. Everyone whose been actually putting forth the idea that a social combat system is workable has made it entirely based on the player's initiating it.

or at least should have some mechanical "this is what triggers it"

 

[Chaosmancer]

exactly

I mean what you just described is why we don't let cops keep you locked up for 3 days interrogating you.., because we figured out that if even a few hours of brow beating happened average people would confess to crimes that they didn't do.

Yep. I didn't even think of police interrogations, that's a great example.

I mean the problem is without magic there are tons of things real life people can do no one in this game can. But yeah there are also things that happen that are WAY more... I mean imagine someone standing and getting hit by 3 arrows, and walking it off like it was nothing... now realize 3d8+3 averages to 18 damage and most 3rd level characters can get hit by 3 arrows walk into town (no short rest) and do anything they could do at full hp...

I wanted to avoid hp, because it always gets muddled, but you don't even need to get as crazy as I was, low-level PCs are equally insane. A 1st level fighter with Athletics proficiency can wrestle an adult ape to the ground (+5 vs +5). They have a decent chance of wrestling an Elk (+5 vs +3 w/ ADV). You make this a mid-level fighter with expertise from a feat? That becomes a near certainty (+13 vs +3 w/ADV). Barbarian? Not even a contest (+13 w/ADV vs +3 w/ADV)

We allow insane mythical feats of strength and athleticism all the time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I wanted to avoid hp, because it always gets muddled, but you don't even need to get as crazy as I was, low-level PCs are equally insane. A 1st level fighter with Athletics proficiency can wrestle an adult ape to the ground (+5 vs +5). They have a decent chance of wrestling an Elk (+5 vs +3 w/ ADV). You make this a mid-level fighter with expertise from a feat? That becomes a near certainty (+13 vs +3 w/ADV). Barbarian? Not even a contest (+13 w/ADV vs +3 w/ADV)

We allow insane mythical feats of strength and athleticism all the time.

yes but no 20th level fighter can keep up with the losers of the Olympic running and jumping events

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Whilst I generally like PC and NPC rules working symmetrically, this is an area in which I prefer to make an exception. The inner mental life of NPCs is not nearly as important and inviolable as that of the PCs nor is the GM immersing in the same way than the players.

So I’m perfectly fine with the PCs influencing the NPCs via their social skills, but I really don’t want the same to happen in the reverse. We can still test NPC’s bluff vs the PC’s insight but the success for the NPC doesn’t result the PC automatically believing the NPC but merely the PC being unable to detect any signs of lying.

 

[FrozenNorth]

This thread is strange. There are actual working "social combat" systems in some actual RPGs, and presumably a 5e D&D system would resemble one or more of these.

For instances, 4e D&D had skill challenges that could be used to resolve social situations. Why wouldn't something like this work for 5e D&D?

I posted upthread of the social system I use. It was a modification of the PF2 Victory Point system, which is itself a modification of 4e skill challenges.

People apparently prefer to argue endlessly about other matters.