D&D 5E Saving throws in 5e

[GMforPowergamers]

So in the heat metal thread I got to looking at saves... and so I want to make this a spin off. Why do we get worse and worse at resisting effects as we level?

here is from that what I said:
in 2e (when I started) PHB Ch9 The Saving Throw each class got BETTER at resisting spells but in 5e most classes get worse.

lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)
a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1

lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0

over all my saves improved by 5, 4, 1,1 ,1 and 1

now that caster only gets 2 increases... but that can bring them to a 20... lets not give them any magic ups though dc 8+5+4 DC 17 (now that is a good save DC) only 1 save kept pace and the other 5 ALL FELL BEHIND...


so your example of fireball not only needs to be prof but also a stat you are keeping up with the caster to not fall behind.

even prof, with a 13 becoming a 14 and a magic +1 lags 1pt behind between 1st and 11th level.

lets look at 1st-11th level fighters in 2e they start needing to roll above

14

16

15

17

17

now at 11th level need

7

9

8

8

10

an improvment of 7 7 7 9 and 7

even if the wizard gets something (I know there were magic items but I think there were non weapon profs in the dragon mag) that applied a negative they would need it to apply a penalty of 6+ pts and I don't think that was possible,


so lets think how this can work? I don't know...


even my own ideas don't keep up

(my idea is to give both stat increase AND feats like 3e, and give everyone a +1 to all stats at level 11, and give half prof to all non prof saves/skills)

even still that only brings the saves up a small amout 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 becomes 20 16 15 14 11 9 and prof of 4... non prof 2 (still giving +1 magic)
+10 +7 +6 +5 +3 +2 is still only an increase of +5 +4 +3 +4 +4 +3 against teh DC increasing by 5 and only the best stat and prof keep up

 

[HammerMan]

My buddy Becky wanted to rebuild 5e fighter as a more well rounded class and the first thing she did was made them prof in all saves (she did other things too like give them 4e at wills that scaled at 11th) and we found even full prof in all saves a caster can (and will if able) target your lower stats and get through.

 

[dave2008]

My buddy Becky wanted to rebuild 5e fighter as a more well rounded class and the first thing she did was made them prof in all saves (she did other things too like give them 4e at wills that scaled at 11th) and we found even full prof in all saves a caster can (and will if able) target your lower stats and get through.

That is a good fighter buff. In 1e they had the best saves IIRC. I might consider this for our next campaign

 

[DEFCON 1]

Is it that characters all get worse at saving against effects as they level... or spellcasters get better at spellcasting as they level?

I've never actually checked... but do character's Armor Classes get better equally to character's attack rolls as they level, or are ACs also comparatively worse just like a character's saving throws are? If it is the latter... then our answer would be that all attacks (weapon or spell) get incrementally better than the defenses at the same level. This gives the attacker the feeling of progression-- "As I level, I hit more often with sword or spell".

Now of course if Armor Classes get better at the same rate of Attacks so that at every level there's no feeling of progression for the offense... then yeah, the spellcasters have it better because the defenses are not matching. So the question is whether this is the case? I honestly don't know.

 

[TheSword]

So in the heat metal thread I got to looking at saves... and so I want to make this a spin off. Why do we get worse and worse at resisting effects as we level?

here is from that what I said:
in 2e (when I started) PHB Ch9 The Saving Throw each class got BETTER at resisting spells but in 5e most classes get worse.

lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)
a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1

lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0

over all my saves improved by 5, 4, 1,1 ,1 and 1

now that caster only gets 2 increases... but that can bring them to a 20... lets not give them any magic ups though dc 8+5+4 DC 17 (now that is a good save DC) only 1 save kept pace and the other 5 ALL FELL BEHIND...


so your example of fireball not only needs to be prof but also a stat you are keeping up with the caster to not fall behind.

even prof, with a 13 becoming a 14 and a magic +1 lags 1pt behind between 1st and 11th level.

lets look at 1st-11th level fighters in 2e they start needing to roll above

14

16

15

17

17

now at 11th level need

7

9

8

8

10

an improvment of 7 7 7 9 and 7

even if the wizard gets something (I know there were magic items but I think there were non weapon profs in the dragon mag) that applied a negative they would need it to apply a penalty of 6+ pts and I don't think that was possible,


so lets think how this can work? I don't know...


even my own ideas don't keep up

(my idea is to give both stat increase AND feats like 3e, and give everyone a +1 to all stats at level 11, and give half prof to all non prof saves/skills)

even still that only brings the saves up a small amout 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 becomes 20 16 15 14 11 9 and prof of 4... non prof 2 (still giving +1 magic)
+10 +7 +6 +5 +3 +2 is still only an increase of +5 +4 +3 +4 +4 +3 against teh DC increasing by 5 and only the best stat and prof keep up

It’s not that saves get worse… it’s that characters face more powerful threats.

 

[Jer]

Is it that characters all get worse at saving against effects as they level... or spellcasters get better at spellcasting as they level?

I've never actually checked... but do character's Armor Classes get better equally to character's attack rolls as they level, or are ACs also comparatively worse just like a character's saving throws are? If it is the latter... then our answer would be that all attacks (weapon or spell) get incrementally better than the defenses at the same level. This gives the attacker the feeling of progression-- "As I level, I hit more often with sword or spell".

It's this - AC isn't tied to level directly and generally IME at least getting AC buffs is harder to do in 5e than in previous games unless the DM hands them out as magic items.

The difference is that AC maxes out at a pretty good place even for high level threats while saving throws really don't. And if you aren't proficient in the save you never get better at it (insert my argument here about why having ability score saving throws is bad, and having it be that only 2 of them ever get better as you advance makes it even worse ).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Is it that characters all get worse at saving against effects as they level... or spellcasters get better at spellcasting as they level?

I mean that to me sounds like 2 sides of the same coin... the save is harder is the end result and the number you need to roll on the d20 is higher not lower as you level.

I've never actually checked... but do character's Armor Classes get better equally to character's attack rolls as they level, or are ACs also comparatively worse just like a character's saving throws are?

where I see this as different there is a bit of truth to it... even the best AC goes up only a bit (a paladin going from 16 to 21 while the attacks go up from2 to 6 for prof much slower.... and the prima attack stat (str dex or cha sometimes wis) goes up too.

If it is the latter... then our answer would be that all attacks (weapon or spell) get incrementally better than the defenses at the same level. This gives the attacker the feeling of progression-- "As I level, I hit more often with sword or spell".

yeah my issue is that 99% of the time the spell is more debilitating then the sword hit. ( asword hit can't turn you to stone, stun you, give you disadvantage, ect)

Now of course if Armor Classes get better at the same rate of Attacks so that at every level there's no feeling of progression for the offense... then yeah, the spellcasters have it better because the defenses are not matching. So the question is whether this is the case? I honestly don't know.

this is why I liked 4e flat math... everyone and everything got 1/2 level and you got a 1 time bump at 1st level of +2 to some things... so over all at level 27 17 or 7 you never got worse at saving or avoiding an equal level problem... the argument can be made you didn't get any better at hitting or landing your spell against an equal level threat though (and D&D works best any edition with a range of threats... level +4 level -2 level... ect) but in both cases that 11th level character is better at hitting the 1st level threat.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It’s not that saves get worse… it’s that characters face more powerful threats.

it's the number on the die needs to be higher... the story point aside you at the table needed a 13 for your worst save and a 7 on your best... now you need 7 on your best and a 17 on your worst.... and this is if all else is equal... in my experence (and your may differ) at low level I am more likely to face my level or level+1 threats, as we climb I am now given a much bigger range and some may be level+3 or level +4 threats... and if they target my medium saves I can fail a LOT of the time... and saves can be VERY harmful.

in our epic+ game (we went to 20th then went with the epic boons and got 3 or 4 before we ended the game) I found that I targeted a soldier with a wis save that a nat 20 could not make or be stunned... and they could save every turn to get out of it...but again a nat 20 didn't stop it. The DM said "I can aide another him after the fight with the help action" and I laughed "Yes roll 2d20 take the highest and hope that the die comes up a 22"

the good point was since we were also taking lots of down time that story spread of a soldier that was being fed and cleaned by his family for ever locked in a fate worse then death... so my character got some RP moment out of that... but the fact that a PC could fall into the same trap scared us a bit.

 

[Li Shenron]

So in the heat metal thread I got to looking at saves... and so I want to make this a spin off. Why do we get worse and worse at resisting effects as we level?

here is from that what I said:
in 2e (when I started) PHB Ch9 The Saving Throw each class got BETTER at resisting spells but in 5e most classes get worse.

lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)
a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1

lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0

That's a completely bonked conclusion.

All characters are getting better at everything, and specifically they all get better in saving throws against the whole world around them.

The fact that they choose to go against better and better enemies, who are getting better faster than them specifically at beating their saving throws is perfectly as intended. You are gaining levels so you are supposed to go against bigger challenges. What kind of lousy game should become easier as you advance?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The difference is that AC maxes out at a pretty good place even for high level threats while saving throws really don't. And if you aren't proficient in the save you never get better at it (insert my argument here about why having ability score saving throws is bad, and having it be that only 2 of them ever get better as you advance makes it even worse ).

yeah having just a fort save and a will save and have both scale well even if 1 scales better then the other sounds better to me then having 6 2 that scale and maybe 1 other you get better at if you up the stat but 3 that never scale)