D&D (2024) Dungeons and Dragons future? Ray Winninger gives a nod to Mike Shea's proposed changes.

[MockingBird]

We don’t know that. 4e didn’t grow as quickly as WotC needed it to, but we have no evidence that the writing was at fault for that. Indeed, what we do know is that 4e was incredibly popular with new players, but the loss of old players created a bottleneck to entry. What this suggests is that the biggest problem was that their early marketing decisions made long-time players feel snubbed.

EDIT: I also don’t think “dry” is a fair characterization of 4e’s presentation. 4e was full of flavor, it was just more technical than previous editions had been.

I can only speak on my own experience. When 4e came out I had a group of mostly new players and they did not like it. They were overwhelmed with character creation and did not enjoy the combat. We gave it several tries, even finished Keep on the Shadowfell, but it just wasn't well received with them.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think you and I have long agreed to disagree on a great many things.

Yep. But this one, in particular, baffles me. Is not the main purpose of a game book to help you play the game? Why would you not just read a novel that's written by experts of entertainment to get pleasure from them if you want to be entertained . . . or just play the game? Because, to me, that's where the real joy comes from, not reading some rulebook that's purpose is to tell you about how the game, a specific setting, or a specific adventure path works.

I can't think of a version of the game both of us would enjoy equally.

Also agreed.

 

[Parmandur]

Yep. But this one, in particular, baffles me. Is not the main purpose of a game book to help you play the game? Why would you not just read a novel that's written by experts of entertainment to get pleasure from them if you want to be entertained . . . or just play the game? Because, to me, that's where the real joy comes from, not reading some rulebook that's purpose is to tell you about how the game, a specific setting, or a specific adventure path works.

Also agreed.

The pleasure of reading an RPG book is similar to the pleasure of a cookbook when not actively cooking: it inspires ideas and plans, stirs the imagination. There is a world of difference between a bland factual cookbook and a humorous, well-written one with great photos. The Heroic Feast D&D tue-in cookbook is a pretty good example of a fun, readable cookbook that is also practical for making food.

 

[billd91]

Again though, why would 4e books need to be useful for 5e games? 5e has its own books for use in 5e games. I don’t fault the Monopoly rules for not being useful in Yahtzee games, nor Dickens for not writing good Shakespeare.

I'm not sure the analogy makes much sense. 4e and 5e may be different editions but "ze game remains ze same", or so someone once said. There are decades long traditions of people using materials that are sufficiently rules-agnostic in multiple editions. By comparison, Monopoly and Yahtzee - not even different editions of the same game.
Shakespeare, on the other hand, does have some characters cross editions, er... plays, even if they appeared in different categories of plays (Falstaff).

 

[Scribe]

Why would you not just read a novel that's written by experts of entertainment to get pleasure from them if you want to be entertained . . . or just play the game? Because, to me, that's where the real joy comes from, not reading some rulebook that's purpose is to tell you about how the game, a specific setting, or a specific adventure path works.

How many D&D novels are being written? Art books? Setting/Lore books?

The purpose of the books released, is far more than just communicating technically how to play the game.

How much budget goes to art, I wonder?

 

[Hussar]

Funny thing about cooking writing. What’s the number one complaint about cooking blogs? That you have to wade through paragraphs of crap just to get to the recipe at the bottom.

But this little back and forth about 4e is precisely why 5e was laid out the way it was. There was zero chance WotC could use any layout ideas from 4e. Just not going to happen.

So here we are eight years later and people complain about vague writing, poor organization and poor layout and wonder why it was done this way.

It’s not exactly a secret. Anything with 4e cooties was an absolute nope in 2014. In 2024, it’s only okay if you can sneak it in under the radar.

 

[tetrasodium]

How many D&D novels are being written? Art books? Setting/Lore books?

The purpose of the books released, is far more than just communicating technically how to play the game.

How much budget goes to art, I wonder?

There have been regular drizzt novels for decades...

 

[dave2008]

I'll leave this sideline with the positive note thet I highly doubt thst WotC will regress on the readability front in future books, and that this lesson has been well internalized into the D&D team culture.

Readability is subjective though. I found 4e more readable than 2e or 3e. That was one of the things that brought me back to D&D.

 

[Charlaquin]

I can only speak to my own experience, as someone who really, really wanted to like 4E and just kept getting disappointed.

Right, so it’s your preference. Which, again, is fine, but is not universal and I think it’s absurd to blame 4e’s financial struggles on.

This is a thread about hopes for the future, so I don'twant to spend any more time dwelling on the misfortunes of the past: I'll leave this sideline with the positive note thet I highly doubt thst WotC will regress on the readability front in future books, and that this lesson has been well internalized into the D&D team culture.

That’s only a positive note if you didn’t like 4e’s writing.

 

[Charlaquin]

I can only speak on my own experience. When 4e came out I had a group of mostly new players and they did not like it. They were overwhelmed with character creation and did not enjoy the combat. We gave it several tries, even finished Keep on the Shadowfell, but it just wasn't well received with them.

That’s a very different problem than readability.