D&D General The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard Problem

[Minigiant]

The Fighter class − in order to be "nonmagical" − needs to become a prestige class that only has levels 1 to 12. There is no level 13 Fighter. Because level 13 is inherently magical.

Technically no.

The Tier 3 and Tier 4 fighter isn't magical. It's just not simple. The desciptions and depictions of master swordsmen and archers ad details that are not simple.

The Captain America Winter Soldier Elevator Fight scene starts with Cap

1. Defending a grapple check with 10 guys using the Help action
2. Beating the STR Saving throw on a high tech magic handcuff
3. Making 8 unarmed strike. Each causing a knock down.
4. Doing 2 again
5. Dropping 3 Tier 2 warriors

And all this without his magic weapon/armor (the shield) and one handed due to the cuff. And 3-4combat rounds.

That's more that the +1 more to Proficency and extra use of Indomitable you get at level 13. The Fighter can't level up and stay both simple and mundane. That's one of the core problems. It's easier to make a Mythic Warrior stay simple that a Mundane Warrior.

 

[FireLance]

I've been pondering on a Special attack System: The Dragonstrike system.

If you chain X number of nondamaging attacks (Shoves and Disarms) in a row, your last attack can be converted into a Dragonstrike. There are 10 Dragonstrikes, one for each dragon. It's a risk and reward system as if you miss, you lose the opportunity to Dragonstrike AND dealt zero damage.

Dragonstrike	Chain	Effect
White	2	3d12 damage
Brass	2	Knocked out (aka Sleep)
Black	3	????
Copper	3	Hamsturng (aka Slowed)
Green	4	Poisoned plus XdY damage per turn
Bronze	4	Knocked back 50 feet and stunned for 1 turn
Blue	5	????
Silver	5	Paralysis
Red	6	????
Gold	6	Stunned then Weakened

I've never played Iron Heroes, but I hear that it has a token system that does something similar.

I think a simpler implementation could be: every time a fighter hits with an attack roll, they gain a token. (If you want to impose a cost, the fighter can reduce the damage done by 1 point to get one token). This can be flavored as the fighter taking in details about the current battlefield and their opponent's fighting style that they can exploit later.

On any subsequent successful attack, the fighter can spend 2 tokens to activate a battlemaster maneuver. Or, if the fighter doesn't want to do anything fancy, they can trade the tokens for extra damage dice (2 tokens = 1d4, 3 tokens = 1d6, ... , 6 tokens = 1d12). One viable strategy is to keep accumulating tokens, then spend them all on a critical hit.

For simplicity, tokens expire at the end of an encounter.

 

[Maxperson]

What bonus do you think an insect has to a climb check?

+1 or +2. Giant Spiders have +3 due to dex and no proficiency, because insects don't use skill. They have tiny hairs designed to grip surfaces. That and they weight one bazillionth of an ounce. Giant spiders have a spider climb ability that allows them to climb surfaces at their weight, allowing them to climb surfaces without making an ability check.

So it has to be more than humanly possible, but in the real world probably there are no more than like 5th or 6th level characters at most. So the level of what is humanly possible is pretty low.

Level doesn't determine what is humanly possible. Race does.

Are giant flies in your campaign world able to cling to sheer surfaces?

I wouldn't allow it due to size and I take away the spider climb ability of giant spiders for the same reason. They use webs and holes(trapdoor spiders) or roam around like Tarantulas. They would need a supernatural power to do so at their size.

If they are, why not a 15th level rogue or fighter?

Too heavy and the lack of all the specialized hairs that would allow it to happen.

Why do they have to be epic before their skill can do more than is humanly possible? By the time you get to double digits, why can't you climb as well as animals, jump as well as kangaroos and do all the other things that mundane creatures can do

Because they aren't those other creatures with their physiological developments that make it possible. A 15th level fighter isn't going to suddenly have his bones, muscles and body structure shift from human into kangaroo to enable it to happen.

that are just a little bit more than what is realistically possible for a human? In a fantasy.

It's not a little bit more. It's a whole lot more. Even in a fantasy words mean something. These are humans, not fandangos with a body structure closer to kangaroos than human. We may not try to mirror reality when we play them, but they are reasonably realistic as humans.

To climb like a spider or fly, or jump like a kangaroo, they would need some sort of supernatural ability that makes it possible. Level alone isn't going to do it. I don't mind that supernatural ability coming from high level fantasy training, but without some sort of "magic," it's not happening.

 

[Maxperson]

That said, yeah, 5e doesn’t support elemental themed character that well. Except maybe if you’ll looking for Radiant, Fire or Lightning damage (Clerics, Sorcerers AND Barbarians all have a storm themed subclass!)

That's what "The rules serve the DM, not the other way around" in the DMG is for. If someone came to me and wanted a cold themed sorcerer, I'd have no problem pulling a spell from this list and two from that list to add to the sorcerer list for that PC. Further, that sorcerer could pick icebolt(firebolt) as a cantrip, iceball(fireball) as a 3rd level spell, and so on. The feat let's you switch the energy type of a spell known to another one, so it's not necessary for a cold themed caster. There are a billion different spells, so every elemental spell is going to have an identical version that is of other elements.

 

[Maxperson]

Technically no.

The Tier 3 and Tier 4 fighter isn't magical. It's just not simple. The desciptions and depictions of master swordsmen and archers ad details that are not simple.

The Captain America Winter Soldier Elevator Fight scene starts with Cap

1. Defending a grapple check with 10 guys using the Help action
2. Beating the STR Saving throw on a high tech magic handcuff
3. Making 8 unarmed strike. Each causing a knock down.
4. Doing 2 again
5. Dropping 3 Tier 2 warriors

And all this without his magic weapon/armor (the shield) and one handed due to the cuff. And 3-4combat rounds.

That's more that the +1 more to Proficency and extra use of Indomitable you get at level 13. The Fighter can't level up and stay both simple and mundane. That's one of the core problems. It's easier to make a Mythic Warrior stay simple that a Mundane Warrior.

Cap in the movies can also flip 2 ton cars. Let's see. 4000/30...... he has like a 133 strength.

 

[Minigiant]

Cap in the movies can also flip 2 ton cars. Let's see. 4000/30...... he has like a 133 strength.

Haven't you heard.
You auto succeed ability checks on a Nat 20 now.
Capt is trained in Athletics so he gets to roll.

 

[Maxperson]

Haven't you heard.
You auto succeed ability checks on a Nat 20 now.

You don't need it when you have 133 strength. You also don't get rolls when the DC is higher than 30, which flipping a 2 ton car is for a normal human.

Edit: No. Athletics is irrelevant to an impossible attempt.

 

[Minigiant]

I've never played Iron Heroes, but I hear that it has a token system that does something similar.

I think a simpler implementation could be: every time a fighter hits with an attack roll, they gain a token. (If you want to impose a cost, the fighter can reduce the damage done by 1 point to get one token). This can be flavored as the fighter taking in details about the current battlefield and their opponent's fighting style that they can exploit later.

On any subsequent successful attack, the fighter can spend 2 tokens to activate a battlemaster maneuver. Or, if the fighter doesn't want to do anything fancy, they can trade the tokens for extra damage dice (2 tokens = 1d4, 3 tokens = 1d6, ... , 6 tokens = 1d12). One viable strategy is to keep accumulating tokens, then spend them all on a critical hit.

For simplicity, tokens expire at the end of an encounter.

The point of the Dragonstrike system is that the only part that scales for martials are damage and HP.

Fighters and Barbarians just deal damage. Not real control, single target nor crowd. No breaking a dragons arm or poking a giant's eye.

Rangers and Paladins don't have exclusive scaling exploration and social spells. Their spells don't have scaling effects either..No wounding arrows or slowing smites. Just damage.

Edit: No. Athletics is irrelevant to an impossible attempt.

Impossible DC is 30.

Captain America just rolled a 20. Don't be a mean old DM with no sense of imagination or fun

(I'm kidding btw but this is my point back in the 1DND discussion)

 

[DND_Reborn]

I've been pondering on a Special attack System: The Dragonstrike system.

If you chain X number of nondamaging attacks (Shoves and Disarms) in a row, your last attack can be converted into a Dragonstrike. There are 10 Dragonstrikes, one for each dragon. It's a risk and reward system as if you miss, you lose the opportunity to Dragonstrike AND dealt zero damage.

Dragonstrike	Chain	Effect
White	2	3d12 damage
Brass	2	Knocked out (aka Sleep)
Black	3	????
Copper	3	Hamsturng (aka Slowed)
Green	4	Poisoned plus XdY damage per turn
Bronze	4	Knocked back 50 feet and stunned for 1 turn
Blue	5	????
Silver	5	Paralysis
Red	6	????
Gold	6	Stunned then Weakened

Nice and all but this didn't answer my question you quoted.

Why does it matter? After all, cantrips scale.

Cantrips scale, sure, and fighters get more attacks, so it works out to about the same damage. But it is just damage. Most people seem to want more in these features than damage (see the above).

A 20th level fire bolt is almost as strong as a fireball to a single target.

4d10 avg 22 vs 8d6 avg 28 is a 27% difference, which I would not say is almost as strong, but YMMV.

It is also a single target vs. the possibility of many, many more.

As a side note, I don't think cantrips should scale that much, personally, and we've capped them to just a single increase in our own game.

Impossible DC is 30.

Technically, it is only "Nearly Impossible."

 

[Minigiant]

Nice and all but this didn't answer my question you quoted.

At-will but has stiff requirements.

You can do unlimited stuns but it requires 6 hits each time.