D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Zubatcarteira]

The HP of all characters gets pretty high as the levels go up, so even casters can usually get enough that killing them in one turn is unlikely for another PC, especially a Cleric who'll pretty much always have high AC, and Wizards can get it pretty high as well if they care about it.

 

[Reynard]

In my view, that's like... scraping the bottom of the cool barrel for the last dregs of cool.

Casters can completely neutralize an enemy with a single spell. Not uncommonly, multiple enemies at the same time. They can play the HP attrition game if they want to, but they have other options. Whereas HP attrition is the only game in town for the fighter. Yeah, in many circumstances a fighter can do HP attrition better than most casters. But not by enough of a margin, IMO, to really justify their distinct lack of other options.

This is the sort of thing I never understand about these arguments. You essentially want your cake and eat it too: you want to play a cool swordsman, and also have all the toys of the wizard at your disposal. So just play a wizard and skin everything as awesome anime kung fu.

 

[Yaarel]

In my view, that's like... scraping the bottom of the cool barrel for the last dregs of cool.

Casters can completely neutralize an enemy with a single spell. Not uncommonly, multiple enemies at the same time. They can play the HP attrition game if they want to, but they have other options. Whereas HP attrition is the only game in town for the fighter. Yeah, in many circumstances a fighter can do HP attrition better than most casters. But not by enough of a margin, IMO, to really justify their distinct lack of other options.

"Life and limb" are zero hit point effects.

At same time, I want combat-ending effects to come online after the target becomes "bloodied". Including, stunned, forced surrender, and so on.

These bloodied status effects both give the target somewhat of a chance before the combat-ending effect, and make settings that require nonlethal combat more viable.

Note, I feel that spells that have a combat-ending effect, should also have a bloodied requirement before being able to neutralize a target.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This is the sort of thing I never understand about these arguments. You essentially want your cake and eat it too: you want to play a cool swordsman, and also have all the toys of the wizard at your disposal. So just play a wizard and skin everything as awesome anime kung fu.

I don't want a fighter to have the wizard's cool things. I want them to have their OWN cool things. I don't want to reskin Merlin as Beowulf. I just think the fighter should be able to be Beowulf. Which, IMO, it is not currently capable of.

 

[Bill Zebub]

In my view, that's like... scraping the bottom of the cool barrel for the last dregs of cool.

Casters can completely neutralize an enemy with a single spell. Not uncommonly, multiple enemies at the same time. They can play the HP attrition game if they want to, but they have other options. Whereas HP attrition is the only game in town for the fighter. Yeah, in many circumstances a fighter can do HP attrition better than most casters. But not by enough of a margin, IMO, to really justify their distinct lack of other options.

I hear what your are saying, but personally I just don't get as much satisfaction from picturing an enemy paralyzed or banished or blinded or whatever, as I do from imagining hacking it to death.

So while your experience is your experience and therefore valid, it's not something that can objectively be called an imbalance or deficiency.

 

[Reynard]

"Life and limb" are zero hit point effects.

At same time, I want combat-ending effects to come online after the target becomes "bloodied". Including, stunned, forced surrender, and so on.

These bloodied status effects both give the target somewhat of chance before the combat-ending effect, and make settings that require nonlethal combat more viable.

Note, I feel that spells that have a combat-ending effect, should also have a bloodied requirement before becoming effective.

There are so many knock on effects of that kind of thing I think you would have to build a new combat system from the ground up to accommodate such an approach.

 

[Reynard]

I don't want a fighter to have the wizard's cool things. I want them to have their OWN cool things. I don't want to reskin Merlin as Beowulf. I just think the fighter should be able to be Beowulf. Which, IMO, it is not currently capable of.

I don't understand that argument. Beowulf fighting Grendle one on one is exactly what martials are good at. What are you trying to accomplish that isn't there?

 

[Yaarel]

There are so many knock on effects of that kind of thing I think you would have to build a new combat system from the ground up to accommodate such an approach.

It can be as simple as defining what the "bloodied" condition means.

 

[Cadence]

I think it's interesting in the Dying Earth books* where they only get around 4 spells slots max, should think carefully about which ones to take, and then also think about what equipment they're bringing for helping with the rest.of their adventure.

And so I wonder how it would be in D&D for a class that only had 4 spell slots**, cantrips, and the ability to do rituals from their books.


* We'll, the first three books. In the fourth they're summoners of wackily powerful things.

** Maybe have an exertion track so that in a pinch they could restudy without a long rest, but it would wear them out.

 

[Reynard]

It can be as simple as defining what the "bloodied" condition means.

I meant the "take an enemy out" part. Remember that "bloodied" is just half hit points, so by introducing your abilities you are shortening fights. this might be a good thing, but it also has downstream effects on the pace of fights and resource expenditure. That isn't even to take into account PCs being subject to such effects when they would otherwise still be in the fight. I don't think it is an unworkable idea, but I don't think it is "simple" either.