D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Bill Zebub]

I don't understand that argument. Beowulf fighting Grendle one on one is exactly what martials are good at. What are you trying to accomplish that isn't there?

I suspect they just want official mechanical support for what some/most people narrate.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't understand that argument. Beowulf fighting Grendle one on one is exactly what martials are good at. What are you trying to accomplish that isn't there?

Beowulf ripping Grendel's arm off. Short of a killing blow cinematic or DM fiat, the fighter has no means of accomplishing this. Not a 1st level. Not at 20th level. Not at epic level.

Whereas you actually see mid level wizards using magic that would put Merlin or Gandalf to shame.

 

[Reynard]

Beowulf ripping Grendel's arm off. Short of a killing blow cinematic or DM fiat, the fighter has no means of accomplishing this. Not a 1st level. Not at 20th level. Not at epic level.

Whereas you actually see mid level wizards using magic that would put Merlin or Gandalf to shame.

Do you mean a massive damage ability with a save for half? Or a save vs death/suck?

I mean, there's an edition out there for that sort of thing.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Do you mean a massive damage ability with a save for half? Or a save vs death/suck?

I mean, there's an edition out there for that sort of thing.

There's a lot of ways it could be implemented. Though massive damage would be the direction I'd be least inclined to go with, since it keeps fighters playing exactly the same game of HP attrition that limits them. One way might be to go with a stunt system like what DCC has (though that particular implementation is arguably too freeform for 5e).

Yeah, there is an edition that allowed the fighter to have nice things. It's unfortunately one of several babies that were discarded alongside the bathwater.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

I don't understand that argument. Beowulf fighting Grendle one on one is exactly what martials are good at. What are you trying to accomplish that isn't there?

I can't speak to Beowulf, but if you take the Pen Fight from Bourne Identity, the following actions occur which have no D&D equivalent:

• Grapples a weapon / limb to prevent the use of that weapon
• Damages the opponent while disarming them
• Puts the opponent into a chokehold, depriving them of oxygen
• Escapes a grapple by damaging the grappling creature
• Uses positional leverage to gain an advantage on opposed checks
• Shoves and damages the opponent with the same attack
• Attacks when an opponent enters their reach with an unarmed strike
• Targets and disables a specific body part, preventing weapons from being wielded by it (or later, from it being used to walk)
• Knocks someone over furniture for additional damage
• Incapacitates a target via damage without having them restrained, unconscious, or dead

^All of the above is not present in D&D without DM adjudication or houserules, and that's a 90 second scene depicting a (from my understanding) fairly realistic fight between the real life equivalent of high level fighters. It's not some crazy anime kung fu stuff, it's just real stuff we as humans can do, which cannot currently be done in D&D by a 20th level fighter.

 

[Cadence]

There's a lot of ways it could be implemented. Though massive damage would be the direction I'd be least inclined to go with, since it keeps fighters playing exactly the same game of HP attrition that limits them. One way might be to go with a stunt system like what DCC has (though that particular implementation is arguably too freeform for 5e).

Yeah, there is an edition that allowed the fighter to have nice things. It's one of several babies that were discarded with bathwater.

Would NPC BBGs get to do that kind of thing too, or just the PCs?

(It feels like a sizeable group like to have NPCs and PCs have similar powers available if the story says they would. It feels like a sizeable group wouldn't like there fighters arm ripped off. I'm not sure of the overlap between the two groups).

 

[Reynard]

I can't speak to Beowulf, but if you take the Pen Fight from Bourne Identity, the following actions occur which have no D&D equivalent:

• Grapples a weapon / limb to prevent the use of that weapon
• Damages the opponent while disarming them
• Puts the opponent into a chokehold, depriving them of oxygen
• Escapes a grapple by damaging the grappling creature
• Uses positional leverage to gain an advantage on opposed checks
• Shoves and damages the opponent with the same attack
• Attacks when an opponent enters their reach with an unarmed strike
• Targets and disables a specific body part, preventing weapons from being wielded by it (or later, from it being used to walk)
• Knocks someone over furniture for additional damage
• Incapacitates a target via damage without having them restrained, unconscious, or dead

^All of the above is not present in D&D without DM adjudication or houserules, and that's a 90 second scene depicting a (from my understanding) fairly realistic fight between the real life equivalent of high level fighters. It's not some crazy anime kung fu stuff, it's just real stuff we as humans can do, which cannot currently be done in D&D by a 20th level fighter.

Play LevelUp.

 

[Reynard]

There's a lot of ways it could be implemented. Though massive damage would be the direction I'd be least inclined to go with, since it keeps fighters playing exactly the same game of HP attrition that limits them. One way might be to go with a stunt system like what DCC has (though that particular implementation is arguably too freeform for 5e).

So what are you willing to give up for your "fighter nova" ability?

 

[Bill Zebub]

^All of the above is not present in D&D without DM adjudication or houserules, and that's a 90 second scene depicting a (from my understanding) fairly realistic fight between the real life equivalent of high level fighters. It's not some crazy anime kung fu stuff, it's just real stuff we as humans can do, which cannot currently be done in D&D by a 20th level fighter.

But...but...you're not describing D&D. D&D doesn't have damage or incapacitation to specific body parts, or really most of the specificity you're describing. (Some of the things, such as unarmed strikes when somebody comes within reach, don't happen to exist but could easily be a maneuver or feat.)

It's like you are asking for Fireball to specify whether the damage is caused by hair catching on fire vs. searing from hot armor vs. smoke inhalation vs. being flung against the wall, and to do more damage when it's in a confined space (which, admittedly, would be really cool). It's just...fire damage. The rest is left to your imagination.

The same is true of martial attacks. All of the things you are describing are the kinds of things that happen in my group. We narrate that stuff all the time.

If you're looking for the specifics to be detailed in the rules, I think you are playing the wrong game. And if D&D tried to do that, it would not be the juggernaut that it is.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Would NPC BBGs get to do that kind of thing too, or just the PCs?

(It feels like a sizeable group like to have NPCs and PCs have similar powers available if the story says they would. It feels like a sizeable group wouldn't like there fighters arm ripped off. I'm not sure of the overlap between the two groups).

There are already (rare) enemies that can maim characters. Spells like Regenerate exist for a reason. That said, monsters in 5e are not typically created as PCs, so while there COULD be NPCs capable of it, certainly not every NPC who knows the right end of a blade could do so.

I mean, by this reasoning, disintegrate shouldn't be a spell because players almost certainly don't want their characters disintegrated.