D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Zubatcarteira]

here is a question that I think is important in the discussion: is there something a high level character of ANY class but particularly a martial class that a high level wizard cannot replicate and/or do just as well or better?

Since True Polymorph exists, it's hard to find something that a Wizard can't do, since they can always just become a creature that can do it, just need to know one below CR 21.

 

[Mort]

I wouldn't make it an Arcana check only because then it becomes a skill tax.

I feel like most people are more leaning towards buffing martials than nerfing casters. Like, I have proposed some nerfs to casters but explicitly under the auspices of "if that's the route you want to go". Which isn't the route I would go.

And frankly, in combat - I wouldn't even "buff" the martials as much as maybe just give them some more interesting options (but even there, it's mostly fine - they hit stuff, it goes down - many players like that).

But, and I guess it's outside the scope of the OP - as I've stated. Martials (except for maybe rogues) need help in the other pillars. There has already been a nod to this (Level Up, some extra in Tasha's) but more couldn't hurt. It will be interesting to see what the 2024 playtest will show on this. We already know that level gated feats are a thing. Maybe there will some nice outside of combat support for martials, through feats or otherwise.

 

[Mort]

Since True Polymorph exists, it's hard to find something that a Wizard can't do, since they can always just become a creature that can do it, just need to know one below CR 21.

Right, when you hit 17+,between Wish and True Polymorph there is very little that's "not possible" for a wizard.

 

[Scott Christian]

Agree about spell accuracy. I've played that it takes an Arcana check, and on a failure the actual epicenter is in a random nearby square.

"Oops....sorry, guys."

We have played that way too. But the second you add that, it seems other things get added. And suddenly, a game that is already slow (after 5th level) becomes even slower. I guess it depends on what the table wants.

 

[Scott Christian]

I think it's less about hitting the spot you aim for and more just the difficulty of gauging exact distances. So a "miss" doesn't mean you missed your target, it means you misjudged where you think the center should be.

But, yeah, mechanically maybe it's the same thing.

Edit: and in case that wasn’t clear, what I really care about is not the center but the edge. It’s the whole “I’m going to drop the fireball exactly here, so it hits the maximum number of enemies while missing all my friends.” It’s kind of B.S.

But it is the way the rules read. So BS or not, a player has every right to stand their ground and declare that action - whether the DM wants them to be able to or not.

 

[Reynard]

That would actually make a great wand!

Temperamental Wand of Fireball
When a charge is expended from this wand, the user casts fireball per the spell directed at a location they can see and rolls a 1d8. The result of the die roll times 5' is the radius of the resultant fireball. The fireball does fire damage equal to 9d6 minus the result of the 1d8 roll.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But it is the way the rules read. So BS or not, a player has every right to stand their ground and declare that action - whether the DM wants them to be able to or not.

Right, but by that reasoning if the rules read that you can lift/drag x lbs, you shouldn't need to make a check to lift/drag x lbs.

It's not practical from a DMing standpoint. How often do you hear DMs complain that their players never retreat (when these kinds of checks could well be the reason why).

It's not even especially realistic. Both soldiers and firemen have heavy kits and are trained to rescue comrades wearing similarly heavy kits. So my level 20 fighter with 20 strength is inferior to a real world volunteer fireman? It's because the DM just decided, in the heat of the moment, to err on the side of caution, because martial.

 

[Reynard]

Right, but by that reasoning if the rules read that you can lift/drag x lbs, you shouldn't need to make a check to lift/drag x lbs.

It's not practical from a DMing standpoint. How often do you hear DMs complain that their players never retreat (when these kinds of checks could well be the reason why).

It's not even especially realistic. Both soldiers and firemen have heavy kits and are trained to rescue comrades wearing similarly heavy kits. So my level 20 fighter with 20 strength is inferior to a real world volunteer fireman? It's because the DM just decided, in the heat of the moment, to err on the side of caution, because martial.

I think they are erring on the side of dramatic tension. that doesn't necessarily make it the right choice, mechanically, but you don't have to automatically assume every decision is because GMs hate players that like martial characters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Wouldn't this approach wreak havoc with spell durations? A spell that lasts 8 hours, like Mage Armor, suddenly becomes a lot less useful if I don't a long rest for 2-3 days. I always assumed 5e was built with an assumption that 1 game day = 24 hours.

Wouldn't this approach wreak havoc with spell durations? A spell that lasts 8 hours, like Mage Armor, suddenly becomes a lot less useful if I don't a long rest for 2-3 days. I always assumed 5e was built with an assumption that 1 game day = 24 hours.

this is a perk... sometimes we would go WEEKSwithout the longrest.... 1sst level spell slots become a HUGE commodity.

now we did also change the short rest to 8hrs

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think they are erring on the side of dramatic tension. that doesn't necessarily make it the right choice, mechanically, but you don't have to automatically assume every decision is because GMs hate players that like martial characters.

I never said hate.

As I've explained numerous times in this thread, it's because they have what is essentially a different standard as to what magic should be able to accomplish vs martials. Obviously, magic ought to be able to break the rules that it explicitly breaks. However, it's not all that uncommon (IME) for DMs to give magic extra leeway beyond that. Because magic.